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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Council Spends £400,000 Teaching Staff To 'Think Positively' Using Paul McKenna Techniques (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Ian Broadmore
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'Hundreds of county council staff are to be taught how to think positively using controversial psychological training techniques endorsed by TV hypnotist Paul McKenna.A town hall is spending £1,000 a head to send 400 staff on a 'leadership improvement programme' in which workers will be taught to 'adopt a successful mindset'.The courses, for all grades of staff from manual workers to managers, include techniques used by celebrity hypnotist Paul McKenna.

The course involves a technique called 'neuro-linguistic programming', which was developed in the 1970s and which is supposed to bring psychological strength to those who receive it. Critics call the technique a fake and say its claims are dressed up to appear scientifically respectable. Suffolk's spending priorities have attracted increasing local attention over the past few days.'
Heres the link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-......ues.html
WillBox
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Urgh this makes me want to puke. When I worked for Virgin everyone was sent on a course by a guy called Jack Black (no, not the actor unfortunately) who wrote a horrible book called 'MindStore'. It was all tacky nonsense. He used to say "if you're having a bad thought - just go into your mind and press the 'delete' button - and delete that thought!". Shudder.

Councils aren't interested in change - the idea terrifies them - they are just interested in looking good and blowing their training budget is a way to tick lots of boxes. That article says that the Chief Exec - Andrea Hill - is on £230k. For local council!!! She tried to employ a PA to organise her appointments for £19463. SHE SHOULD BE SHOT! Local UK Councils really don't have a clue, and are without a doubt the most unproductive and revenue wasting industry in the UK.
mindpunisher
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I would happily do it for £800 a head. And for an extra £50 Ild do the whole body.
Anthony Jacquin
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I smell 'Common Purpose'.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

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bobser
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On 2008-10-13 12:23, WillBox wrote:
When I worked for Virgin everyone was sent on a course by a guy called Jack Black (no, not the actor unfortunately) who wrote a horrible book called 'MindStore'. It was all tacky nonsense. He used to say "if you're having a bad thought - just go into your mind and press the 'delete' button - and delete that thought!". Shudder.


I do appreciate where you're coming from Will, but in all fairness to Jack, He was one of the UK's most prominant presenters of 'The Silva Method' which was incredibly succesful world-wide. What he then did was write a programme called 'Mindstore' (to my mind a watered down version of SILVA)and somehow managed NOT to be taken to court by Jose Silver. In it's finest form I'd have to say that many of the methods actually do work. For what it's worth the line you mentioned should actually read: "Delete that programme" which if used properly, DOES work. But surely no hypnotist would disagree with that? I guess I should come clean here and say that I was a Silva student (also Mindstore) and actually loved it. I even thought long and hard about an offer to be a tutor with them. Anyway I purchased a TT instead and the rest in history.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
WillBox
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Fair enough, points taken. The problem I have with such courses is that somewhere in the chinese game of 'money making' whispers, the conviction, skills and genuine psychological awareness get lost, and you end up with these clueless idiots being paid a fortune to go into companies (or Hotel seminar rooms) to regurgitate books, come out with irrelevant (and often made up) examples, and mock the audience. I remember the woman who trained mindstore spent about 20 minutes at the start slagging off negativity and people who are never satisfied, before delivering a terrible presentation. I thought 'how clever, to dissuade people from the embarrassment of their more suggestible colleagues' mocking, and prevent complaints, whilst no doubt getting 'very satisfied' ticks on the evaluation at the end, even though its a total waste of time'. I did try to delete that program - perhaps forgot to empty the recycle bin and it somehow reinstalled itself.
bobser
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...can't argue with any of that. And yes there is that bit where you simply get told something (something incredibly new to your belief system) and with no real evidence to back up the statement there is an assumption that you will accept the given statement without question. I don't know if you saw Jack do the pushing of the arm whilst telling the recipient they were getting weaker? I always found that incredibly embarrassing! And yet I never saw anone pose an argument when he did it. Kind of like the emperor's invisible clothes maybe.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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I don't really agree with that. I think jack Black at best is a very rough crude hypnotist. He has taken Silva and made it sliva.

Actually you may not like him but he is a living example of someone applying the principles and making them work.

What he did was simplify a system and make it accessable to the masses. And despite what your personal opinion is he has made a lot of money from it and also has a huge army of screaming fans.

I have spoken to Directors of huge companies who swear by him. On the other hand Ive heard the opposite.

Personally he is a very bad hypnotist in my opinion. But he does have the right mindset to make it work. So hes living proof that these techniques do indeed work.

Otherwise we could all read a few books regurgitate it and earn a fortune. Buit even with superior skills and products we all know its not that easy.
WillBox
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On 2008-10-15 09:02, mindpunisher wrote:
Actually you may not like him but he is a living example of someone applying the principles and making them work.
Based on what? His financial success? Its like Ians thread about measuring the outcome - there is precious little evidence of what these sorts of corporate training events actually do to improve anything, beyond naive delegates saying "yeah that was fun, not so sure about the quiche".

Quote:
And despite what your personal opinion is he has made a lot of money from it and also has a huge army of screaming fans. I have spoken to Directors of huge companies who swear by him.


This is mixing the debate of being good quality (or even being at all useful) with being successful, which as we all know they aren't the same thing at all. Take Paul McKenna. And come on, a lot of company directors are are totally ignorant when it comes to applied psychology, they will swear by anyone who has some charisma and makes them feel important.

Quote:
Otherwise we could all read a few books regurgitate it and earn a fortune. Buit even with superior skills and products we all know its not that easy.


Yes but the mindstore trainers were doing exactly that. Its a case of build a brand, get some buzz, have a few 'techniques' that you can call your own, do a few big events, then employ a bunch of monkeys to spread the word. By this point, it doesn't matter whether they have the influential skills of a jellyfish or not, its all about the money. And its right about this point where naive trollops like Andrea from Suffolk Council come on board and waste £400k of taxpayers money.
mindpunisher
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Many psychologists are ignorant about "applied psychology".

The fact is its more of an art than a science. I repeat the results are what matters.

Charisma and the ability to change others behaviour is a powerful thing. Make no mistake about it. Countries have been built and destroyed by it. It goes beyond a science its an art. An invisible force that's real.

Jack Black without doubt is a product of belief and mindset. that's what mindstore or any other personal development product is about. Its not a science it is a waste of time trying use science to measure it. The only way is "does it work?" If it works it works. Its just a tool if some people get more of what they want by using it then its valid and valuable.

You can put two people side by side. Business people, athletes whatever field. You can measure them using scientific or other methods. They can appear the same in every way. Intellegence, physique, background, age, experience, capital, etc etc.

Everything that can be measured can appear to be the same. Yet one will excel while the other falters. Science will never be able to measure the difference.

The difference is invisible, a combination of spirit belief and focused perception.

If you think its that easy to build a brand create a buzz then spread the word prove it DO IT. Im telling you now I have met at least a thousand people over a 20+ year period who have tried and failed. Many much more skilled than Mr Black (which isn't too difficult).

As for the council and tax payers money? Councils by default are a law unto themselves. You may be right. But that doesn't mean Paul Mckenna's programme is crap. I get the impression that most people who go on courses because they are sent never get the value. As opposed to those that pay to be there. It may well be a jolly for the council.

But as someone who believes in the effectiveness and power of hypnosis surely you must realise that this is all hypnosis mindstore creating a buzz etc. Its an art not a science and a powerful one.

you yourself have been "inducted" into your own choices. Some would say that Boyne was awful but you see it a different way. There is no difference between that than how you percieve Black.
mindpunisher
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Also if you re-read the article its written in a very manipulative way

I remember one line saying some thing like " critics have claimed NLP didn't work etc etc etc"

Who exactly said that? Doesn't everything have an opposing side? a critic? Its also a great way to get over a personal opinion without being attacked for it. Ive took note I may use it myself. Nice little bit of work.

Nice piece of indirect suggestion.
WillBox
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On 2008-10-15 11:20, mindpunisher wrote:
Many psychologists are ignorant about "applied psychology".

The fact is its more of an art than a science. I repeat the results are what matters.

Charisma and the ability to change others behaviour is a powerful thing. Make no mistake about it. Countries have been built and destroyed by it. It goes beyond a science its an art. An invisible force that's real.

Jack Black without doubt is a product of belief and mindset. that's what mindstore or any other personal development product is about. Its not a science it is a waste of time trying use science to measure it. The only way is "does it work?" If it works it works. Its just a tool if some people get more of what they want by using it then its valid and valuable.

You can put two people side by side. Business people, athletes whatever field. You can measure them using scientific or other methods. They can appear the same in every way. Intellegence, physique, background, age, experience, capital, etc etc.

Everything that can be measured can appear to be the same. Yet one will excel while the other falters. Science will never be able to measure the difference.

The difference is invisible, a combination of spirit belief and focused perception.

If you think its that easy to build a brand create a buzz then spread the word prove it DO IT. Im telling you now I have met at least a thousand people over a 20+ year period who have tried and failed. Many much more skilled than Mr Black (which isn't too difficult).

As for the council and tax payers money? Councils by default are a law unto themselves. You may be right. But that doesn't mean Paul Mckenna's programme is crap. I get the impression that most people who go on courses because they are sent never get the value. As opposed to those that pay to be there. It may well be a jolly for the council.

But as someone who believes in the effectiveness and power of hypnosis surely you must realise that this is all hypnosis mindstore creating a buzz etc. Its an art not a science and a powerful one.

you yourself have been "inducted" into your own choices. Some would say that Boyne was awful but you see it a different way. There is no difference between that than how you percieve Black.
WillBox
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Dammit I just posted a message, forgot to put in my username, clicked 'back' and didn't realise it had turned it all into MP's quote. Apologies!
mindpunisher
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Well if something is worth saying its worth saying twice...

glad we agree on something. There's hope for you yet..
bobser
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Yes but I'm not too sure what you ARE saying MP. Are you saying Jack Black is good? Lucky? Talented? Clever? What exactly?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
WillBox
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WHOA HEY WHOA - MP I didn't say I agreed! I just didn't have time (or patience) to go back and re-write (although I'm sure you were just teasing by assuming an agreement).

You're blending 'success' with 'quality and usefulness' again which is a very blurry and endless-debatey thing to do. Think of George 'dubya' Bush for e.g. Or again, McKenna. He regurgitates NLP and EFT aimed at low IQ supermarket shoppers, morning TV watchers and management subordinates because he knows that's where the money is. So financially successful sure, but more watered down than a homeopathists wet dream.

Same thing as that Rhonda woman and 'The Secret' repackaging whats been said for centuries, and Jack Black with the Silva method. Heck, they all do it! And sure, throw in all the charisma, charm, jokes and quiche at lunch and its a sure fire way to make money. Not easy, no, but then not always particularly sincere either.

My issue isn't with financial success of such people, its with the way it gets screwed up by the time it reaches delegates who are paying lots. By this point its just a money making scam - the results AREN'T measured (and YES they SHOULD be but more about that in a moment), the whole persuasion/hypnosis/mindset machine takes over to 'woo' the audience and financial decision makers. When it comes to tax payers money, there should be more of a committee about making such decisions, not just allowing a new over-paid ego-head to get all wet over the idea of 'this modern thing called NLP'.

Back to your thing about comparing athletes etc. I agree that the 'inner spark' or whatever you want to call it is difficult to be measured, but really, all performance IS measurable scientifically, and performance is always an indicator of the 'inner spark' (charisma, determination, whatever). Theres no need to be all anti-science - science, and measurability should absolutely be embraced by all positive psychology (and hypnotherapy etc) if it wants to stand apart from wishy-washy nonsense (I'm not saying it IS wishy-washy nonsense - just that it needs to segregate itself with more than just "but it works! They're rich it must be working!").
mindpunisher
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On 2008-10-15 22:24, bobser wrote:
Yes but I'm not too sure what you ARE saying MP. Are you saying Jack Black is good? Lucky? Talented? Clever? What exactly?


I am saying that whether he is good lucky or whatever is a perception an opinion. He is obviously successful. He does help a lot of people. He does get results. And he is very successful. No one can argue with that. Even if they think they can. If its that easy go replicate what Jack has achieved. My personal opinion is that the system is crude and basic. But it does work for some people. Jack does nothing for me. But that's only my view.

Ive met too many people that have got real benefits from following him to be stupid enough to knock him. I think anyone who has an open mind and uses the system would benefit from it. It is afterall basic hypnosis. I just think there are far better systems around.
mindpunisher
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>>>>>>>>Back to your thing about comparing athletes etc. I agree that the 'inner spark' or whatever you want to call it is difficult to be measured, but really, all performance IS measurable scientifically, and performance is always an indicator of the 'inner spark' (charisma, determination, whatever). Theres no need to be all anti-science - science, and measurability should absolutely be embraced by all positive psychology (and hypnotherapy etc) if it wants to stand apart from wishy-washy nonsense (I'm not saying it IS wishy-washy nonsense - just that it needs to segregate itself with more than just "but it works! They're rich it must be working!"). <<<<<<<


I am only saying that science isn't needed to measure performance the indicators are usually evident...person feels happier person is achieving what they wanted to achive but couldn't before.

that's all that matters.

Are some of them just money making scams? Sure I agree lots are. But they are still servicing a hungry market who probably wouldn't buy into a more sophisticated product. But at the same time many of them do benefit.

As for the council and tax payers money? I have no idea. Would love one of those contracts though. I believe a lot of it will be a waste of money. Simply because most won't even want to be there.

I am not a fan of Mckenna.
davidwwebster1702
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Re: Jack Black and The Silva Method

I only just came across this thread.

Jack Black was indeed a presenter of the Silva Method; in Scotland as far as I'm aware, as that's where I took the Silva Course many, many moons ago.

Somehow, and he boasted about it, Mr Black managed to avoid signing any agreement with Jose Silva.

After a couple of years presenting the Silva Method, Jack Black disappeared as a Silva presenter, but then, surprise, surprise, pops up with his Mindstore course a few months later. Mindstore has many elements which are quite blatantly direct copies of the Silva Method course, - just change a few names of the techniques, and off you go.

As far as I'm aware Silva very seriously considered legal action, but were advised that without Black having signed an appropriate agreement there was minimal chance of such an action being successful.

My opinion above on the comparison is on the basis of having also attended an early days Mindstore course, as Mr Black needed to get the numbers up and offered free participation to previous Silva attendees.

So there you go, - there's hardly an original Jack Black thought in Mindstore, - it's all copied from Silva ! Worse, as stated elsewhere in this thread Mindstore is a poor, poor copy.

dww
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