Hi everyone!

I have been receiving lately posts and ads from magic web pages I have visited in the past, and they are promoting and advertising a new method for really effective flash hypnosis. They claim that it works in seconds and even against people's will. The latter as everybody knows is not suppossed to be possible.

In some web pages they call theses new methods "underground hypnosis" or "raw hypnosis". Does anybody know anything about it? Is it for real? Or is just another Internet fake thing?

Best regards,


Giovanni.

Yah, I'd like to know too...

Anyone? Is this legit?

If you are a hypnotist anything works.

That said when I see the terms 'raw' and 'underground' I tend to move on to something less boring instead. If the web page is over 1 meter long I do the same. Likewise for every buy now button I tend to halve my interest in a product.

Anthony

Thanks for the advice Anthony..

People are always coming out with the 'new' hypnosis technique that should be banned, works on anyone, blah blah blah. It seems to be happening more than ever these days as opposed to past decades I guess mostly because of the internet, greed, but also a growing market of young people feeling powerless in todays instinct-quashing and hostile world.

In my opinion, the vast majority of buyers of such things will get no where with it. Because they are aimed at people wanting power over others, influence etc, it becomes too attached to ego. I doubt the genuine passion, interest, patience, awareness and humanity will exist to really learn.

Yeah I'm going to relaunch that 'pinch the vein in the neck' hypnosis thingy, but I'm going to do it on a DVD with genuine people collapsing to the concrete floor. The cast will have genuine blood pouring from their headcuts to reveal to the purchaser that this is a genuine product.
Although this is said tongue in cheek, suddenly a strange feeling comes upon me with the realisation that as soon as I click the 'submit reply' button this crazy idea of mine will be in the ether, where it will no doubt get used by someone (and maybe their ninja son).
Just think, it's now circa 2020 and someone's actually reading this as a reference. People like Doyle, Nongard, Ronning and the Jacquin family all claim they know me intimitaly. I feel proud and today I shall wear lace as I neckpinch my way across town.

bobser

I actually bought a DVD on instant hypnosis techniques that DOES include the carotid artery "induction" which the guy is teaching to folks with no hypnosis experience as a useful induction. He presses until the person almost passes out then fires in his suggestions. Yes, incredibly dangerous. I would never teach that sort of thing in an open class - although I do understand that some completests are interested for historical understanding and that's one of the reasons I learned the thing - never to be used with actual humans.

I have a "nerve pinch" induction in my DVD set but it is explained very carefully as a variation of an "expectancy" induction and NOT an actual nerve pinch (yes, I like Star Trek) . . . for those who aren't sure what that means, there's no actual nerve cluster involved but the induction works because the trance partner believes it is there. My "energy" induction works on the same expectancy principle as does the "telepathic hypnosis" induction (which I demonstrated in a room full of hypnotists once and still half of 'em didn't realize what the underlying mechanism really was).

All the best,
Brian

Giovanni,

WillBox's answer is absolutely correct. When you actually pay for and get the "courses," you'll find that they consist of a tiny bit of NLP, Dilts, Erickson, etc., and admit that it will only work with some people some of the time. In fact, because it's only a tiny bit of the training, it's like knowing you need uranium to make an atomic bomb. Sure, it's true, but without lots more training and apparatus (or in this case, experience), you won't succeed.

There are ways to legitimately induce a formal hypnotic trance in a matter of seconds, but you'll only learn a bit about them in those courses. You won't be able to effectively use them to achieve trance. Beside, even if you were able to achieve trance, the difficult part of hypnosis is not the induction, it's what you do AFTER the induction.

I would suggest that you save your money and take an in-person training in hypnosis and/or NLP. Those "instant" or "rapid" inductions are ways to show off, and if they don't teach one or more to you during the training, just ask the trainer. After you have the basics, doing those types of inductions aren't difficult at all.

Thank you all for your comments!!

I found the other day on the Internet a DVD called ZAP, which sounds exactly like what Brian described.

On the other hand I took a couple of months ago a course on NLP and clinic hypnosis and I was told that it is impossible to hypnotize someone against his will, so that is why those internet products called my attention.

My goal is to introduce hypnosis in my mentalism show, but I’m still a little bit nervous, even though I have learnt the theory. Last Thursday, while performing a simple book test on the stage, I had a person of the public that went into a hypnotic trance for a few seconds, but I took her out immediately because I was afraid of improvising something. Anyway, next time I think I will, I think that is the only way to get more comfortable with stage hypnosis.

Best regards,


Giovanni.

Giovanni, I was definitely not talking about Zap. It is hard to compare the Zap piece to anything else as it hasn't even been released (the adverts for the last few months have been for a "pre-release" of the product which originally was to be released on Oct. 31 but now says "mid-november" . . . none of the rave reviews on the Penguin site are from people who have seen the product (the product does not yet exist). The Zap product is an example of advertising that seems to go over the top. However, I don't believe Hong is using a carotid artery type procedure. He's doing another sort of disequilibrium move or just a really fast aggressive standard arm pull induction.

As to the piece I was talking about, I'd rather not name the specific product but it is a fellow who is better known for NLPish persuasion type products than directed hypnosis and I am not sure but don't believe the product is available any longer (not sure if he pulled it or discontinued for some other reason).

All the best,
Brian

Thanks Brian!

I also talked to my NLP instructor and she believes those "new" hypnosis methods are just pure NLP.

Best regards,

Giovanni.

See, this is what irritates me about NLP instructors, they frame everything as NLP which just muddies the waters in terms of students getting a clear understanding of things.

Good point Willbox,

Anyway, that is what NLP is all about. Just using the same communication tools humans have been using for a long time, but a little bit structured.

Giovanni.

Its not a problem with NLP its a problem with the training system which was created just to make money. Most trainers I've met can't use the techniques to do anything worthwhile other than sell certificates. NLP is just a bag of tools. Some very powerful tools. But they need a craftsman to get any real results. Unfortunately the NLP system of certification doesn't create many craftsmen only a long blood line of clones that can't think for themselves.

The example Will uses only demonstrates my point. The "trainer" doesn't even seem to realise NLP was coined partially because Bandler couldn't practice hypnosis in Texas without a medical license. So he called it NLP. NLP in its purest form is nothing more than hypnosis modelled from Erickson and Virginia Satire.

Erickson's vague language patterns automatically induce trance. While Satire's precise questioning pulls you out of trance. that's where the integrated Milton/ Metamodel came from. Which is the basis of NLP.

Now why doesn't it surprise me that a so called "trainer" didn't know that simple fact?

I totally agree with MP. I treat NLP trainers with blazing suspicion, because most of the time they are so lost in the circular logic of train-the-trainer-to-train-more-trainee-trainers money-spinning nonsense that they don't stop to realise that no one is actually getting any use of it. And for every "hang on a minute, my mate had his phobia cured with NLP" that I hear from the crowd, I know there'll be plenty more people who were left feeling undermined and irritated by an encounter with a soft-baked NLPer. The thought comes to mind of an NLPer bopped on the nose, saying to themselves "how curious, the visual fascination of the blood splattering on the ground is in conflict with the kineasthetic experience of pain and throbbing, hmm, I shall reframe this experience as 'learning', being I am in a state of confusion, and confusion always preceeds a profound learning experience, yes, I - <WHACK WHACK PUNCH> - yes thanks again for that"

MP; sometimes you are a genious when you aint being nasty
I totaly agree with you and willbox.
sometimes nlpers don't even have a clue what it is and what they are doing they are fuddy-duddys.

Only sometimes?

Hi guys, just new to the Café.
For U : tiriri.... (1st on the postlist) I bought the underground Hypnosis package by Taylor Starr and just recently the Raw Hypnosis package by Ryan Evan (MasterMentalism.com fame). B4 I go on. I am a total novice to hypnosis. This stuff looked good so I had a crack at buying it. (Didn't know about the Café at that time). My view of both products are that they are very similar. Raw Hypnosis is more polished though and has bonus CDs of audio induction/session for weight loss, smoking, stress relief and 3 other things. Taylors product was recorded in what I think is an attic on a busy street, with the mike 12 inches from his mouth. In a nut shell I'm still a bit naive on the validity of hypnosis, but I believe I have self inducted myself and had a result in weight control. the way I am seeing all this stuff is as an applied form of psychology. The taking control of people is not: oooohhh you are in my power.....control. No it is how can I say; like a "power " one has in a seduction situation.

Say some sheila (thats ozzy language for female) has the hots already for you, well you can skip the build rapport part because its already there... she likes you. As you continue chatting (her up)she becomes more amiable to your suggestions. Oh.. She likes me more so now she will do more that I want. If she is a good church girl, she aint gunna jump the bed sheets for you, but if her "views" are not so strong and she goes to church just to be seen, then yeah, she just must be suggestible to your suggestions. Does that make sense?

I found the courses as building blocks for understanding human behaviour/nature VERY enlightening. Probably as enlightening as a good readup on observing and interpreting body language and how you can body fit yourself to say more than your words. Hypnosis or more specifically this underground, Raw, conversational hypnosis is teaching me Word/speech language (sounds like an oxymoron but try to see the parallel I'm trying to draw)

Value for money: Well.................. and Well................again.

Raw hypnosis is better in my book. If you can be bothered spending cash.

Having said that I'm seriously having a look at the conversational Hypnosis seris by Igor Lechowishi or what ever his name is. If I get it I'll probalby buy through a chick called Sue watson who runs hypnosis downloads.com (I think its called that.) She offers a couple of extra bonus disks of general hypnosis stuff.

One last point, both suppliers say this Raw/underground is a combination of Normal hypnosis with Seduction, NLP and advanced or high level language patterns. I know nothing about NLP but the other three I think mix into basic psycology in an applied form.

Crap, I've dialog'd you to sleep. Maybe if I keep talking I'll put you into a trance. Oh you are snoring. I must have meant sleep.

Hope I've been of help

Mindpunisher continues to show his lack of knowledge about NLP. Virginia Satir (not "Satire" as you repeated, in error, twice), was not a hypnotist.

However, I agree with you and Will that many people who have certificates in NLP couldn't use any of the techniques, leading to justifiable suspicion of NLP trainers. But this is not limited to NLP. I've taken advanced hypnosis trainings where people couldn't do a simple induction before the training (and shouldn't have been allowed in) and couldn't do an induction after the training. I've attending trainings for people to be able to teach hypnosis, but many, if not most of the people attending, couldn't teach people to read a clock. So the criticism applies to hypnosis training as well as NLP training.

And it doesn't stop there. I've seen numerous trainings with gung-ho trainers who are supposed to encourage the attendees to improve their lives in some way or another. And it does help the attendees--during the training. It "wears off" quickly after the training. And I've seen lectures by magicians--actually an excuse to demo and sell their wares. People attending buy in quantity, and then put the effects and books in a cabinet never to use them.

There is something about attending workshops that some people like to do. IMO it's like a drug to them, and what they get out of it has nothing to do with the content, it's simply the participation. To imply that people who take NLP trainings will instantly be able to use the techniques with themselves and others is questionable not because trainees couldn't theoretically be able to do so, but because for any of a variety of reasons they can't do it. Of course, how is that different from an ad for a magic trick that sounds incredible, but when you get it, you realize that it is an unusable piece of crap?

And this goes for all kinds of trainings. If you take a 2-day training in how to use Photoshop where they claim you'll be an expert, do you really think that's what will happen? It's a culture of training and the training cultists that, IMO, is the problem, and not the content or its presentation.

If you know anything about NLP you will know that Satir's precision use of language is used to pull people out of trance. Where as Milton's vague language is used to create and throw people into trance.

Integrated milton/meta model is at the heart of NLP. Everything flows from that. The very basic pressuposition is that we are constantly in trance and move from one trance to another.

The Milton/meta model are tools that allow a practitioner to pull someone out of the problem trance they are currently in and throw them into a more appropriate one.

Much Of Ross Jeffrie's work is about "hijacking" the trance someone is in and leading them in the direction you want them to go.

I have delivered two day trainings that have lead to sales records being smashed for a large prestige car group. two hour coaching sessions that have resulted in moving a £250,000 donation to over a £1,000,000 commitment. I get results regularly that can be measured with less than two days. Some of which have been life changing for the participants.

I simply get results. I don't care about the content that's not my focus.

If you want to make empty arguments then go ahead...

And one last time. NLP IS hypnosis not the other way around.