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danielguo Regular user 146 Posts |
I'm majorly a close up performer and I'm from China.
Recently I work on stage and I've started to learn many things. What kind of silk is best for stage? or size? for production and loading? Thanks for sharing your idea. Daniel.G |
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Daniel,
Welcome to The Magic Café. For most stage work, the lightest silk you can get that will still hold its shape and gives beautiful color is best. The illusion that you can't hide anything behind it is also important. For stage, most professionals use 24" and 36" silks. However, for all magicians, the 18" size is the most popular. (It is the size closest to a man's handkerchief.) For productions and loading benefits, the 5 momme is the standard. It is very compressible and shows well. Heavier silk is hardly more opaque but does require more load space. Graphics are a little sharper on 6-8 momme silk but not usually enough to be seen by a stage or platform audience. Enjoy your silk magic. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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danielguo Regular user 146 Posts |
Thank you very much!
You helped me a lot. I really love The Café! Thanks again Bob! Daniel.Guo |
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markofmagic Elite user 480 Posts |
For a great ending you can use a 6 foot by 6 foot silk. It make for a great ending production and always gets a great response.
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
In China as well as most Latin markets, large streamers are preferred to silk squares for larger productions.
Whatever the shape, silks do make great productions. They are very colorful, move beautifully, and make use of the full stage. Not many productions actually can make this claim. When you look a cargo space required, smoke is about all that can compete with silk! Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
For me, it really depends upon what I am doing. I prefer 24" for stage, but I use 18" in some routines. Same with the thickness. I use silks from 5 momme to 8 momme.
Regan
Mister Mystery
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
If you are packing tight, you want 5 or 6 momme. If you tying knots in it (20th century, symapethic silks, etc), go at least 8 momme. Also use the 8 or greater momme if you want the silk less tranparent.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
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markofmagic Elite user 480 Posts |
I use some 18 inch but mostly I use 36 inch silks. But I do have one 6 foot by 6 foot silk butterfly silk. The larger the more visible and also my experience is the larger the wow factor. I always get a great response when I produce the big butterfly silk
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Remember that all the audience sees is colored surfaces! To me opaqueness removes much of the magic. One of the reasons for using sheer silk is to give the illusion that "nothing is hidden here". Otherwise, you might as well use a newspaper, piece of cardboard, etc. Box magic is about opaqueness!
Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
That's interesting Bob! I try to use the heaviest silks I can in each application. Both for the intensity of color and durability of use. I'll use a 10 momme if I can get away with it! I've even used silk charmeuse in some situations!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Weight is no indication of quality or consistency. Color hue is no problem since the 80s and movement from pre WWII technology in Japan to modern technology in China is amazing. I'm not sure that weight isn't a liability when it comes to wear. The two things that are detrimental to silk are punctures (separation of weave, not broken threads) and stains. Pure silk has 2/3s the strength of steel. Abrasion can be a function of weight and more isn't better. In fact the abrasion within a dirty 8 momme silk is worse than (160% +) the abrasion in a dirty 5 momme silk. I can't buy higher momme is higher durability. Strength is seldom a factor.
The good hems available today were impossible to get in Harold Rice's day. Higher momme silk could be worked on less sophisticated machinery by less skilled technicians. Life has changed. Hems have an awful lot to do with silk durability. (There is a reason why importers refer to the lower end of the magic silk supply as seventy-five cent silk. All silk the same momme is not equal.) I think you are already aware that the top pro silk magicians in Japan use 5 momme China silk. It's a pro choice! Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
I am going to agree to disagree with Bob on this one.
Most performers in Japan use 5 momme silks because they are cheap and readily available. There are some very good performers in Japan and Asia using these silks but to me they just do not make it. Because of the lesser number of threads in the silk (momme weight), there is less color saturation onstage. If it is hit onstage with a bright light, the color almost disappears entirely. I am not saying you have to use a blanket onstage but even going to a 6 momme will bump up the color tremendously. Dale Salwak is using 6 momme silks in his fountain. Notice how much more color there is in his fountain than most of the thinner silk fountains. It does make a difference. Dale does use a 5 momme in his cane because of the need for a thinner silk. To compensate for the lack of color saturation, he bumps the color to a bright fuschia which helps. As a guy that makes and dyes all these wieghts of silks, I can tell you it does make a difference to have a heavier momme weight. Hemming is very important to the strength of the silk. That is why double turned hems are so important. It triples the strength on the edges of the silk. Serging a silk just does not make it. Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Sorry Bob, I fall in with Richard here. Without question the 8 weight silk has greater color saturation than the 5 wt. Using the same dye on two different weight silks will produce a visual difference. This is why necktie manufacturers (such as Drake's of London) emphasize the weight of silk fabric they use: better 'hand' and depth of color.
Durability is better too. I have used 8 weight silks for 30 years in professional applications around the globe and every time I have tried to replace the heavier silks with something lighter.. well they just don't sustain. I suspect that the reason most Japanese magicians use the 5 weight silk is because there aren't companies such as SKS or Hughes Magic (and may be yours too!) to supply the heavier and stronger silk. And the price that magicians have traditionally paid for 5 wt silks (from suppliers such as KORI silks in Kuramae) is so fractionally small compared to what we pay at magic shops in the USA for the same silk..well, they are practically disposable! I buy all my fabric from non magic sources and roll all the hems myself. I only make double turned hems and on silk effects that I make for myself use only silk thread ...as well. Similarly in men's suiting fabrics, (comparing wool to wool) the newer super 100's and 120's will NOT produce a longer lasting garment than traditional 80's to 100's. Rather the new technology makes the fabric stretchier and softer, but not more durable. Although new technology in fabrics must be factored in, I'll till lean towards a 6, 8 or even 10 weight silk every time.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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bojanbarisic Elite user Croatia 462 Posts |
Is there any book how to roll hems ? I have a laser machine 130x80 cm and I can cut any shape I want but I have no idea how to make a hem.
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Thirty years ago I would have agreed with both of you. Today I feel like you are simply thirty years behind the curve. Thirty years ago Chinese silk was not an option in the USA. Silk that was legal in the USA then had "inclusions" no longer required. Those were also a source of abrasion.
The only cost difference to an importer is about $.20/yard and $6.00/pound air freight. This is not about money. Momme also does not tell you anything about the weave except differences in weight. I can get you 10 momme silk you would be ashamed to let you dog play with. A better measure is needed for quality comparisons but momme is simply not it. It's like predicting someone's blood pressure by tooth count. Except for the freight bill it is a relatively useless measure. Bob |
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Spellbinder Inner circle The Holy City of East Orange, NJ 6438 Posts |
Silk fight! Silk fight! You know the rules: stand 24 inches apart, no wet silks, no lead weights sewn into hems, and no crying to your momme when you get hit in the face.
Professor Spellbinder
Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry http://www.magicnook.com Publisher of The Wizards' Journals |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
There are lots of books on hand sewing that will teach you all sorts of hemming techniques. However what is often called a hand rolled hem (such as that on 'hand' rolled linen pocket squares) is usually not right for magic purposes.
The better hem is a double turned hem as mentioned above, which means the raw edge is folded over and then folded over again ...sealing it forever from fraying and giving a clean appearance to both sides of the silk. This is then stitched down by machine to create a strong and durable silk. You can buy various 'feet' to attach to the sewing machine that are designed to roll a double hem mechanically and sew it almost simultaneously, so that rolling a hem by hand becomes unnecessary. The different type of feet purchased come in different sizes for width of hem and fabric types. some of these feet aer supposedly 'universal' and will fit most machines ...other ones you might have to buy specifically for certain brand sewing machines. Sad to say, I've never used the foot attachment on my sewing machine. I think it's so old (the machine ...not me!) that a special rolling foot is not available. I roll a double hem by hand. After cutting the fabric to the right size, I roll the hem using my fingers to work my way around the silk .... assisted by a warm to hot iron and a bit of water in a spray pump. This can get tedious, but I've learned to be pretty quick about it. after the double rolled hem has ben ironed flat. I then run it thru' my sewing machine completing the silk. And I've made hundreds of silks this way! Some time I'll post about the 70 silks that Doug Henning had me custom make for him juts before he died. A strange and strangely beautiful story....
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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bojanbarisic Elite user Croatia 462 Posts |
Thanks Jonathan
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Hey Bob!
I agree with you that weight alone is not the deciding factor. One must factor in the weave and other qualities. I too have seen 10 weight silk with those abrasions as evidence of shoddy goods. ad you should have seen the pure silk thread they tried to sell me in Beijing in 1990! I guess the 'good stuff' was all being exported! However your statement that good quality silk was not available from Chinese sources is questionable. My supplier in Los Angeles has been importing quality 'China' Silk from the factories in mainland China for well over 50 years. I personally purchased fabric from him at least 30 years ago when I first started making my own silks. this meant I went to his store and examined the yardage and only found quality equivalent to SKS...but in heavier weight. Admittedly he is Chinese by birth (as was his father who started the business) and perhaps they were privy to sources you did not have. But it has been available. In all my discussions of silk and weight, I am only comparing apples to apples : the best quality 6 or 8 weight silk is better (more durable and brilliant in color) than the best quality 5 wt. silk. Please understand I am not a manufacturer, just a professional magician who features silk magic as a significant part of my work and I am just saying what experience has taught me. De gustibus non est dsputandum
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
"However your statement that good quality silk was not available from Chinese sources is questionable." ---- My Statement?
I certainly hope That I did not ever lead you to believe that Chinese silk was in anyway inferior to Japanese silk. My purpose was to make it perfectly clear that the only way to get good Chinese silk into the USA back in Harold Rice's day was to illegally smuggle it into the country. That is why better silk was harder to get thirty years ago here in the USA. Japanese and India silk were about all he had to choose from. He could not legally get China silk. Today it is the first choice source. I have been in the import business since 1969. There would be no problem in still getting silk from Japan except I send silk there from China! Bob PS --- The keywords are "Legally Available". Silk from China was not Legally Available in the USA. Japanese silk was the silk legally used in the USA until China silk became legal again. Japanese silk had the "inclusions". |
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