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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1984 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-04-20 23:22, Micheal Leath wrote: I agree with you guys about the copying for the most part. The one thing I don't mind doing though is giving anyone who owns a copy of Windows 95, 98, 98se or Millenium a free copy of Windows 2000. I own copies of all the Microsoft operating systems up to 2000. Microsoft made billions on flawed cruddy operating systems. They owe anyone who bought their scrappy OS a honest too goodness secure working operating system. At least they got it right with XP. Copying magic videos is wrong.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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redstreak Inner circle A.K.A David Kong 1368 Posts |
A different person just offered to sell me a bunch of copied tapes.
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FCpreacher Elite user PA 439 Posts |
Tsk, tsk. Situation ethics. You clicked the "I agree" button when you downloaded the software. Is that honest?
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1984 Posts |
FCpreacher,
Yep, I clicked "I agree" when I loaded the software. Is that honest? Nope! Is what Microsoft did with the licensing agreements and terms honest? Nope! Is what Microsoft did with all the bug ridden unsecure operating systems honest? Nope! In the end, the took a whole lot of peoples money, broke the law and got very rich on the backs of the consumers who trusted that they were getting a working secure operating system. The owe me and a lot of other people a working operating system. Fair is fair. They will never own up to it. So I don't feel bad setting things right and making us even. Not in the least.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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niva Inner circle Malta (Europe) 2970 Posts |
I agree with all you are saying. But we musn't forget that there is another theft in the magical community, coming from some creators. These either sell crap, have misleading ads, or else have their products way over priced. Do we consider that too?? Is that stealing?? Are there any laws on these things??? Do they click "I agree"?? Magic is already an expensive hobby (as my friends always guess, when I do magic for them), and this doesn't help to get rid of those who copy DVDs etc... Besides, I am from Malta and we have no dealers here. Or maybe I should say a small one who sells a few standard stuff. All the things I buy have to be half the price of the item more expensive. You can imagine how we feel when we then receive something that wasn't as advertised or something that could have been cheaper. (I am not counting when we receive the product damaged, if we receive at all.)
Speaking of over priced products; doesn't every creator go through the same kind of process when inventing something? Isn't it the same work that is put in the releasing of the product? Then how come that some charge so much, for a video, for instance, and others don't? Two guys I am thinking of right now, who do not sell over priced products are Andrew Mayne and Peter Eggink (who has just released his Melt Change). Isn't Mayne creative too? So what I want to say is this. We can't just judge others as everyone does something illegal, even creators, sometimes. But their illegal things do not show that much. So I say we must start from the roots of the problem. Magic is a diferent thing from Movies and Software. That is true because it deals with secrets. So we must be very careful. See you!!! Ivan PS: Peter, sorry if this is a stupid question, but I can't get it right? Isn't the number of copies made always proportional to the number of originals? I mean, the same fraction of copied products is found in each area, right?? (I hope that is clear, as sometimes I speak mathematically. )
Yours,
Ivan |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1984 Posts |
Microsoft is an extreme example of repeated dishonesty and unfairness. Their example is an anomoly and doesn't really apply to other things.
Copying magic videos is wrong. Buy it, don't copy it. Buying props is a little different. It should work like it is supposed to or it should be returned and made right. One should be very careful buying things off the internet, site unseen. That is why magicians should support their local magic shops. The people who run those shops have a vested interest in keeping you as a customer and most will give you good advice, especially if you establish a good relationship with them. When you establish a relationship with a dealer, they will let you look at the latest greatest item or will answer your questions honestly and let you know about weak points in an prop or effect. That is a huge benefit to supporting your local dealer.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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niva Inner circle Malta (Europe) 2970 Posts |
Yes, that's right. I just wish I had that opportunity. I am going to FISM this July and it will be my first face to face experience with magic dealers. It will be too much for me. I hope I won't faint.
Ivan
Yours,
Ivan |
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pennjarr Regular user 110 Posts |
Could someone just clarify the exact cut off point when its ok to copy magic is too small but music is big so its okay?
I see a lot of people taking the moral high ground, with everything in their life being completly original, well good on you, In my youth I copied some things (at that time it was spectrum computer games go figure) I don't condone what these people are doing but, rest assured if you ban them they will not stop. Try listening to them, make some suggestions, eventually they will figure out its not the secret/trick that makes the magician. I will now get off my soap box |
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redstreak Inner circle A.K.A David Kong 1368 Posts |
My dad used to be a "computer guy", Microsoft is known for dishonesty, my dad heard whenever they did something dishonest, you'd be amased. One time Bill Gates was doing a a live demo on TV for a new kind of computer and it crashed!
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johnr733 New user Denver, CO 66 Posts |
Pennjarr,
For me it was Infocom games. So Kaliix, Are you saying you need a copy of XP? Heard of Kazaa? |
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sludge Special user milton keynes, england 530 Posts |
In the computer sw world, there are many, many people (usually kids) who copy and trade computer software. Some of these kids amass mountains of software amounting to thousands and thousands of pounds/dollars if sold that they never even use (for example one program alone can cost tens of thousands of dollars).
The whole "scene" is nothing more than a playground of kids with software trading cards. Maybe, just maybe most of these kids trading in magic are of this type? It's still theft though. Personally, the couple of times I have been offered copies I have informed the publishers. Let's all try and do this? To put it in context I think that magic IS a different issue to sw or music due to the need/desire for secrecy. I still think most magic is far too cheaply priced, but I suppose that's the times we live in. Then there's Microsoft, who produce over-priced software (given the quality of most of their products) and the people daft enough to buy it when there are perfectly good alternatives (some of them legally free). Lastly, I have in the past downloaded music from the net. But, if I like it and wish to listen to it more than once, I go out and buy the CD (and that costs me a fortune too) - maybe I am more materialistic than most as I like to have a CD or a magic book hardcopy? btw, I remember when a cd burner cost twenty thousands pounds (about thirty thousand dollars) and I too copied spectrum games as a kid (and spent too many hours typing programs into my ZX81). |
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debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts |
Just because Microsoft's a big horrible company and L&L is so little and nice doesn't make it any more right to steal it (legally). So the difference is between personal law and legal law and for that we all have to make up our own minds.
As much as I hate to quote it "let he who is without sin..." Here's a few examples: software - enough said mp3 (music download) - I have bought more cds than anyone I know (over 2500) and I also downloaded alot of music (mostly rare and OOP stuff). Personally I hope that the record companies go out of business, because they are horrible thieves and pound horrible music into impressionable people's minds. However this does not make downloading copyrighted music an o.k. thing to do. I just choose to do it for myself. How about making a mix-CD for a girlfriend - Did you buy the originals and then throw them away once you made the mix CD? How about learning a trick at a magic meeting from a friend. Did you go out and buy the book right after? How about buying used equipment or books (for all you know the person that originally had it could still be using the effects). How about libraries - Someone donates an old book or video and hundreds of people use the material and the writer never sees a dime. So where do you draw the line? I believe the answer is you draw it for yourself and nobody else. Matt |
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Skulldini New user N. California 80 Posts |
As previous posts have stated, the warning at the begining of tapes/DVDs are there for a purpose. What you are about to do "Copy for resale/ rent" is illegal, period. And anyone who tries to get around this by saying, "I paid for it so I can do whatever I want to make a profit" is a thief.
If more people report this kind of behaviour to the proper authorities maybe it will slow down these illegal actions. Magic clubs having tapes available to view, and not copy isn't the issue. But if this same club has lecture notes that are photo-copied for hand outs, that would be theft as well. It is a sad state of affairs that so many have no regard for honesty anymore. MAKE MONEY ANY WAY YOU CAN, AND THEN RUN LIKE HELL BEFORE YOU GET CAUGHT! Again, I say report any and all illegal activites to the proper people. There, I think I'm done for now. Skulldini |
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Magix Elite user 432 Posts |
Several times the question has been asked, "Where do you draw the line?"
While I think it's an interesting point, worthy of debate, it's also off the main topic. Here at the Café the line has been drawn for us: "The following items may be sold or traded in this area, provided they follow the strict criteria below: DVD's/Video's: Because of copyright and piracy issues, originals only please. No copies or dupes. No downloaded items from the net. No exceptions. Items other than dvd's and videos posted here will be removed with no explanation given. No exceptions. Notice: Members who violate any of the above rules will have their post(s) advertising such items removed, and will receive a warning. A second offense will result in the loss of all posting privileges for a period of 30 days. Repeat offenders will be banned from the Café permanently!" And that's good enough for me. |
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KC Special user Utah 571 Posts |
Hey Matt,
About the library situation, Andrew Mayne, repeatedly talks (on the magic radio show, http://www.themagicradioshow.com) about donating his magic books to school libraries so the kids that have an interest in magic can have something unique to work with. And I remember reading an article by Michael Close saying that if his books were available in every single library in America, he would love that because that means that thousands upon thousands of his books have been purchased. And he would be really rich. And so having magic books in a library is not necessarily a bad thing. K.C. |
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
When I was younger - I felt like it was OK to steal from those who I felt "could afford it" - Then I got a job started to make a few improvements in the quality of life - Started a small business a few years ago (BMX Track), and bought an $8,000.00 fence to enclose it - spent about $20,000.00 to actually build it - Not an earthshaking amount - But then, I go out to the track and see kids that have broken in, sometimes with the help of their parents.
I ask them what they were thinking of - Their answer? - We thought it would be OK - Why did I put up an eight foot fence then complete with "No Trespassing" signs, I ask - Their answer: Well, anyone can get over that and we didn't see the signs (I guess they're "video learners"). Have you ever dropped off some money when we're open? Answer: No. Why? Answer:The track sucks. Once after catching a family out at the track and sending them home - The next night I went over to their house and set up a lawn chair on their front lawn and read the local paper and drank a Coke - They called the County Sheriff!! And there was no fence and no trespassing signs anywhere in sight - Go figure! Dave |
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johnr733 New user Denver, CO 66 Posts |
So no one has a fake Rolex?
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Magix Elite user 432 Posts |
PayPal me $10,000 and I'll send one right out.
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
So no one has a fake Rolex?
Hi, Why would you want one? Surley the draw of such products (genuine products) is to give the buyer a feeling of luxury and self importance. Buying a fake is not going to give you that as you will know deep inside that it is fake. Phillip |
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CharlieC Elite user 488 Posts |
Funny story Dave! You should have pulled a Jim Carrey on their lawn...
"Whenever he gets in a fix he reaches into his bag of tricks.
Felix the cat, the wonderful, wonderful cat..." |
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