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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
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On 2008-11-13 08:29, Tom Bartlett wrote: So, you are saying that magicians cannot see the magic in their own magic? Then, does this define a line separating a sense of wonder from a mystery? I can stand in awe at a visual illusion, even though I know how it's done. I can also witness things happening as a result of something I have done, have zero knowledge regarding how it is accomplished, yet have no emotional reaction at all.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
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On 2008-11-09 04:14, Andrew Musgrave wrote: With due respect, I disagree. When we see birds flying, it's not magic. If we were seeing your magician coming in the room and levitating without strings or visible means, undoubtedly it would be extremely surprising and puzzling. But if he flies because his spirit is able to have such an elevation that it transcends its body, then it's magic. In other words, if his levitation has "symbolic or metaphorical implications", it reaches us deeper than just the rational display of an impossibility; it touches us emotionally. When it deals with finite knowledge (rational) it can be extremely surprising (people don't know how it's done), but people still accept that there is a solution they ignore; when it's symbolic or metaphorical, it touches immaterial infinite values (they know it can't be done, so it can only illustrate something of a higher degree), and then it's magical. This is the way I read Simon Aronson (and a few others), and that's the way I build my scripts. I believe that the real entertaining value and success of the George Lucas Star Wars films comes from the symbolic and metaphorical implications (Oedipus complex between Luke Skywalker and his father and confrontation between their respective values) ... but I'm not going to go to war for that.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-13 15:33, Lawrence O wrote: Lawrence, The point I'm trying to make isn't so much that a guy walking into a room and levitating is great presentation or anything, but that its main power is divorced from the theatrical context. Take two magicians. Both of them are flying apparently because of the condition of their spirits. Metaphorically/Symbolically/Whateverically, the meanings of the feats are identical. For one of them, it's in the theater, and we can see the strings holding him up. The second one is doing it right there in front of you in a normal living room, and we can see nothing holding him up. Is there any question as to which one would be received as a stronger piece of magic? In all other art forms, the strength of the work is usually not dictated by visceral details -- a movie with superior special effects might be an obviously lesser film because the quality of the artistic message is junk. This happens all the time. For the most part, though, this does not hold true in magic. If the only power of the effect lies in the metaphorical significance of the events and not in the apparent conviction that what is happening really is happening, then it is going to be a weak effect. It is taken for granted that Christopher Reeve is not Superman and that he can't really fly. These are cast aside in the process of suspension of disbelief so that we can enjoy the metaphors at work. Alternately, since you brought up the Star Wars films, we can consider the moment when Luke Skywalker makes C3PO levitate in his chair so as to intimidate the Ewoks. What's important isn't whether or not we believe C3PO is really flying, but that the Ewoks believe it, because this then motivates the ensuing actions, which are themselves significant for the progress of the story, as well as let us learn something about Luke's ideas about how to use his powers (since he could have just used the force to fry the Ewoks, etc.). In David Copperfield's Flying illusion, though, it is imperative that all evidence seems to point to the reality of him flying. This trumps everything else. It is, of course, possible to have an effect that is both sufficiently strong from a magic standpoint and also strong from an Aesthetics standpoint. These usually make for great performances when the correct balance is struck. However, it is a mistake to take a weak effect, dress it up with the trappings of art, and assume that is suddenly a strong piece of magic. It may be a great performance piece, it may have artistic significance, but it is not necessarily stronger magic.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
I think that Lawrence O. and Andrew Musgrave are both right.
While magic craft and the magic effect itself are literal and non-metaphorical (as music, or even the picture or photograph is simply what it is), presentation as performance art offers lots of opportunity for metaphor and, if well done, benefits from that as performance art. I would say that the jolt (astonishment) created by the magic effect itself (as the mind is pierced by the dilemma) is independent of metaphor. That is just the accurately played notes of the musical composition. Add to that the metaphor of an effective presentation, and you have, perhaps, a work of art. Music played with passion.
Michael Kamen
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-13 11:15, Michael Baker wrote: Are you saying you are in awe of yourself when you do a magic trick? When I do magic, I have a feeling of accomplishment; the same as when I do a coin roll or practice muscle pass, but it is not magic, and I‘m certainly not in awe of my abilities. But if I’m the audience and watch a magician do magic, and they are good, even the tricks I know become magic again.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Andrew Musgrave,
I see your point. Thank you for having taken the trouble to develop it.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If a magician's character was Superman and he wanted to convince his audience he could fly without strings, then visible strings would not help convince them, whether or not his name was Christopher Reeve. What would convince them it was magic is if they could not see the strings and if he did it live. Thus, to be a magician, one must do the apparently impossible, live.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: Thus, to be a magician, one must do the apparently impossible, live for an audience, even if it is only an audience of one.On 2008-11-20 16:19, tommy wrote:
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I also think all magicians are not equal. While one can play chess and be a chess player, it's not the same thing as being a Grand Master. I like the notion of starting as a magician and working towards becoming a Master Magician.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts |
When does one become a Master Magician?
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts |
A person becomes a magician as soon as they are born, but no one notices it yet.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
When you're one of the Top 100 Best Paid, how else?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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john scot Special user brighton, uk 585 Posts |
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On 2008-11-21 18:03, tommy wrote: "I'm not a master. I'm a student-master, meaning that I have the knowledge of a master and the expertise of a master, but I'm still learning. So I'm a student-master. I don't believe in the word 'master.' I consider the master as such when they close the casket." - Bruce Lee |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
You have the knowledge of a master and the expertise of a master, but you will learn that counts for nothing Hollywood.
Anyway, who can do magic and not be a magician?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Tommy
I don't think money is the criteria to be a master David Blaine is making more money than John Carney but John is a master. Making money makes you possibly a master in entrepreneurship or business, not a master magician (believe me I'm well placed to know on both accounts: I'am a master business man but have a long way to go to be a master magician) So for me Bill Kalush is a master magician and David Blaine is a master business man in the magic arena (if you have a way to check with any of them both, ask them if I don't know what I'm talking about and what was the role of my late partner, Jeffrey Steiner, in David Blaine's skyrocketting TV career) Another point you seem to disagree with is the meaning of magic. A live experience is definitely, as you rightfully underline it, an ingredient of magic. It seems however too short IMHO. Remember Aaronson's statement that it's not enough that people don't know how it's done, they have to know that it cannot be done. Your description of superman "live" tends to express that doing it live without people seeing the strings is enough. Am I mistaken?
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Why is so much of this board dedicated to answering entirely semantic questions that do not improve our work in any way? So many focus on titles. Don't worry about what you are called or should be called, or could be called. Do a good job. Entertain your audience. Do the best job you can, with whatever tools available to you, whatever they are. Stop trying to learn the rules of entertainment, because there is only one.
"Please those you serve." |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Be nice Jack. We have folks here who wave a wand commanding no spirits to do their bidding - who conjure nothing and will renounce their will at a keystroke - and owe it to our craft to help them at least consider magic if they so choose.
Just for a laugh folks: because what?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Its not great art that makes money; its money that makes great art. Money is the objective; great art is the result. Money made from the live performance of magic, is the objective way, of telling if one magician is a better magician than the another.
Money made from camera tricks is as money made from cheating at poker or anything else that is not the art of the performance live magic. Such counts for nothing in the master magicians account; only money made from the live performance magic counts. Thus the likes of Harry Potter, Chris Angel, David Blain, Superman and so on can make as much money as they like from camera tricks, and good luck to them, but can put nothing in their master magician accounts from what they earn from that. Once we have gotten past defining everyone in terms of some stereotype or another, and making subjective and self-serving statements, we can look at this and see if it helps the art. To my mind, to look at magic as I have just explained, helps a magicians create ever better magic, for if magicians get it in their mind to go for ever bigger fees, it will drive the quality of their magic ever higher. They will have a practical thing to show them that they are going the right way and that thing will be money. If they start earning more and more they will know by that they are on the right track and if less they know they will have to change direction.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On 2008-12-01 21:35, JackScratch wrote: Because we like to talk to our peers? |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
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On 2008-12-01 21:35, JackScratch wrote: What makes you so certain that it doesn't improve our art in any way. To me this is not semantic. It is about what is real improvement and what is self satisfaction. But you're saying the same thing in your own words: please those you serve. You and us are trying to find better ways to do just that. It's not semantic, despite its general aspect it's very practical... I hope. It takes many colorful touches to make an impressionist painting
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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