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gaddy
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The thing I find most sad about this thread is that here we have a young magician (Matthew W, not Dan Sperry...) who is attempting to sort out his thinking and feelings about a very tricky and murky aspect of out craft: ETHICS.

You know, that little thing that everyone talks about and proclaims about and thinks is Sooooo sacred, and yet at the same time are soooo flexible about when a little green is flashed at them (again I'm not talking about Dan. I like him, and he's made it clear he's not making any money off the WMA, and I tend to believe him...)

He's trying to figure out how ethics in magic works. He has a few well meaning but ill conceived ideas about it. And he doesn't know when to shut up.

Now he's made his point. He got shot down by a majority of people here (not including myself, I tend to agree with him in sentiment) and not in the nicest of ways by some of the folks here either. And yet he's continued to hit his head against this brick wall... Ah, headstrong youth!

What I'm puzzled by is that the Café population hasn't (metaphorically) patted him on the head and told him to go fetch a cookie out of the jar, turned our backs, and gone back to the adult conversations, you know -about "Religiuous" and weather or not we like cats. The important stuff!

My question is what do we wish to accomplish here? Beat up on Matt? Educate him to the ways of the world? Go tit for tat on the juvenile insult posts? Have the last word?

Just curious...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
pepka
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Uh, I'm the one on the right.
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The one thing that really excites me about the WMA's is it tends to give some much deserved screen time to wonderful artists who aren't very well known. This year, I'll be excited to see Danny and Florian Zimmer. (I really hope he does his wonderful grafitti act.)

Regarding Matthew W, I can say he really seems passionate and focused. It just needs to be channeled in another direction. Have we learned nothing from "The Last Temptation of Christ?" The more you say don't watch, don't watch, and try to protest, the more attention you draw to it, and the more people will watch. While I don't agree with these exposure shows, in the long run they really don't do much damage. In fact, by making all kinds of noise to sponsors, and stations, you are showing that it creates controversy; and controversy means ratings. Just ignore it, let it run it's course and it will go away. Remember, linking rings were exposed on a much bigger network a few years ago and how many of us still us them every night? Relax and focus all your energy into being a better performer.
Destiny
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Quote:
My question is what do we wish to accomplish here? Beat up on Matt? Educate him to the ways of the world? Go tit for tat on the juvenile insult posts? Have the last word?


All of the above but you are too generous to me in your order of ranking. I personally would rearrange the list in order of importance to: Beat up on Matt. Go tit for tat on the juvenile insult posts. Have the last word. Educate him to the ways of the world.

And did I mention sport?

Destiny
kcg5
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who wants four fried chickens and a coke
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Matt you have certainly had your trials and tribulations here at the Café. I agree with gaddy in many respects, but You have been through this before. I really think that it is your attitude towards others. If you don't believe me, wonder why most of us seem to get along....
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2008-11-14 04:23, kcg5 wrote:

Matt you have certainly had your trials and tribulations here at the Café. I agree with gaddy in many respects, but You have been through this before. I really think that it is your attitude towards others. If you don't believe me, wonder why most of us seem to get along....


I wasn't going to comment on that -totally another kettle of fish, but yeah...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
DonDriver
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Matthew has been on me in another thread at Step Right Up.( and he got on me for a typo,like he jumped on Danny here...he thinks that made him smarter than us because of it)

kcg5 is right about his attitude towards others.I just don't care to ever have him in any more dscussions I'm in.He dosen't have any manners at all and shows NO respect if you don't agree with him 100%.

I'm so feed up with him,that if he got banned because of his rude attitude towards other magicians it would make me happy.

Watch,he'll jump on me for posting this.

Later,Don
Destiny
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Matthew is 18.

He is an adult.

He wants to talk to us as adults - should we then be patronising and hesitate to talk to him as an adult because we see his rants as immature?

I know 50 year olds who are just as immature, so I think not.

I did take a minute to ponder my attitude to Matthew after Gaddys post because I like his thoughtfulness and respect his opinion, but on this I think he's wrong.

Youth culture has been taking over the world with little instant experts on keyboards everywhere revelling in their own unearnt self belief and locked in a mindframe of entitlement. As people who had to work for what we have, it is up to us to slap some awareness of the real world into them - though it looks as though it may be too late and the way thing are going the little Western princes and princesses are about to get a nasty jolt of reality.

I stayed out of the thread about Matthews 'costume' which just looked like clothes kids wear in the mall to me, but I did enjoy watching him dismiss every suggestion, while constantly defending the 'costume' he himself wished to replace.

This young man needs to learn how conversation and discussion and the world works, and when I have the time and inclination to play, I do my best to help.

Destiny
DonDriver
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Destiny,

Hes behond help.Read all his post,its NEVER his fault and he ALWAYS knows better.All this with his cocky attitude as well.

I would say his everyday life is the same as it is here.

I'm 65 and I'm here to help younger magicians and lots will tell you I do just that.

However,I refuse to let some immature rude 18 year old(if he is 18) tell me off,start fights with me and tell me how to pitch and that hes always right and I'm always wrong over and over again.(I've been at the pitching game for well over 30 years)It an't going to happen anymore.

Amazing but like kcg5 said,with all the young magicians I help on these fourms and other fourms for many years,Matthew is the ONLY one I have ever had a problem with...EVER !( but I'm sure its all my fault)


That's my two cents.

Later,Don

( I missed spelled one word,that I know of,let see if I get jumped on)
Dannydoyle
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Gaddy, this post is an answer to you.

I think you make a great point, UNTIL young Matthew started spouting about contract law. He has absolutly NO idea what it is he is even speaking about, how court systems work, or about what a contract seems to do. So I misspell ONE word, (yea one) as Don points out and he starts to attack. Now you want US to act as if we did something wrong? The child needs to put on the big boy pants and learn manners.

As for him trying to figure out anything this is where you in my view respectfully make a small mistake. This child does not want to learn, he ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING. About contracts, about judges, about spelling, about magic ethics, about how TV specials work, about everything you can imagine. ALL at the tender age of 18. He does not want to be guided, as we tried, he wants validation and wants to be agreed with. There is NO way to teach one who refuses to learn. My lord he had an attorney telling him about contract law for crying out loud. What can be taught to such a person?

Had our petulant friend showed the LEAST inclination to grow up it would be different. Myself and Dave tried. We said that one post he made was being reasonable. Dave backed me up. Then tantrum time. He spent 1 1/2 pages PLUS many other threads being a nit. So badly that he has to tell everyone DOZENS of times how old he is and is not 14.

The problem is him, the problem is his attitude, the problem is he has no respect for anyone and thinks he knows everything.

I agree that simply beating him up is not going to accomplish anything, but neither is trying to help him. So beating him up simply becomes the more entertaining response. I am 100% with Don on this and the others.

Who knows he may show up next post all grown up, offer an appology and show us he really does know how to be a man. I for one hope so. He is indeed passionate and seems to have at his core a love for magic. He just needs to grow up in general. If he does not do this, nobody can help him.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
DonDriver
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Well there you go,
everybody is rude to him and nothing is his fault.Hes right and we are all wrong and says it with his immature cocky attitude like he always does.It never stops and never will.

See Destiny,I told you he was beyond help.It looks like Danny and I called this one right.

I think he needs to be banned from these fourms,for good.

Later,Don
MickeyPainless
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I miss the good old days of "Children should be seen and not heard" and "spare the rod, spoil the child"!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-11-14 10:50, Matthew W wrote:
Don,

Just because you have been at something for 30 years does not make you the all time expert at something. There are people that have been doctors for 30 years, yet still leave scalpels and gauze in their patients when they sew them up.

I jump on you because of the post you made about my show.


See Matthew, you "jumped" on him, not "jump" on him. The gramatical mistakes keep comming and after you seem to want to point out everyone elses spelling mistakes.

As for "rude" let me just say this. To show how wrong "rudeness" is you then go on one of the longest most childish tantrum/tants being more rude than anyone ever was to you. I was not "rude" to you, I was pointing out that you had a childish comprehension of what law and contracts was. If it is "rude" to point out where you are so off base you are making a fool of yourself, and to try to guide you to the answer, then yep I am rude.

Your childish comprehension of "rude" qualifies as anything that does not completly agree with you. Which makes sense, as you know everything.

Oh and by the way child, putting things like "go back to talking about what is important" to try to belittle us when you should be more concerned about buying a car and chasing a girl, is pretty smug and makes you look silly.

I hope your hormones kick in soon and you discover women. It will change your perspective about what does or does not matter in life.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-11-14 10:50, Matthew W wrote:
Danny,

Quit going at it and telling me I know nothing. I don't really give a hoot about what you or a so-called attorney has to say to me. If you are rude to me, I don't listen to you no matter what you have to say. A person who is rude to someone they claim they are helping is not someone who should be involved. I only have the attitude now is because it the only way to get you to listen to what I have to say, otherwise you are going to figure you won. But you did not.

I point out the spelling mistake because you were already rude and telling me I know nothing. Had you been nice, I would have not cared about how you write.


Matthew, the sooner you figure out that it is not about who "won" and get the point that it is about "learning" you will be better off. How did this become about "winning"? Stop thinking with your testoserone count and try to use the head on the top of your neck for a change.

The only one who can "win" here is you Matthew, but only if you open your mind, and not your mouth.

Do you really think acting like a petulant spoiled child will get anyone to listen to what you have to say? Think it through.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kcg5
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who wants four fried chickens and a coke
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Quote:
On 2008-11-14 10:50, Matthew W wrote:


Go back and talk about the things that are more important, like cats, meatloaf, and what movies you saw. You know, the stuff that really matters.



Fine, Matt. We will have our sandbox, you may have yours. Later
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Slartibartfast
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I watched a movie while I ate a meatloaf made out of cats.
If you can pull it off in a biker bar without being violated by a corn dog, more power to you.
-- Gwyd, the Unusual

"YOUR Signature...speaks volumns (sic) as to your lack of understanding."
--T.V.
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