Where'd you see that?


Posted: Dec 22, 2008 9:34pm
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Never mind, I'm stupid.

After reading through the many posts in this thread I have to agree with Silverking's posts on the topic and must admit I’m surprised there isn’t more astonishment over Paul not performing in his own series. How can you this be 'the definitive Paul Harris Collector’s Item' as defined by trueastonishments.com when Paul isn't performing any of his own material? Sure the material appears to all be Paul's (and/or his variations on other's work) but the truth is he isn't performing.

To me, this is the same as buying an instructional DVD like "Sammy Hagar teaches his famous songs" only to find out that Sammy has some unknown playing all the music with Sammy doing interviews and voice overs with the instruction. It may be his work, but it isn’t the master teaching his techniques…it’s someone else reproducing his techniques without Paul’s mannerism’s and unique subtleties.

I know I'm in the minority, and yes, I'll buy the set, but I'm worried about the overall hype of this release. What's weird to me is that everyone is just holding the opinion of - 'come on...it's Paul; it’s got to be good!’

Furthermore, while there is a lot to do with these productions since Paul isn't performing - what's he been doing the last five years? Has he been searching for someone to do the work for nothing more than name recognition? Like or hate Paul and his work, I think this question is worth asking before purchasing the product.
Finally, while I know it’s part of the game, Tim's multiple posts advertising the set and talking it up are getting rather old - at least to me. I know these aren’t the most popular comments to make in this forum, but, hey, they are my thoughts and opinions. Since there has been so little devil’s advocate discussion in this thread I felt the need to chime in.

I hope I'm wrong...guess I’ll have to wait for the release.

Re...lax.

There's probably a reason why Paul isn't performing, and it's likely not because he is lazy and wants others to do work for him like you are suggesting. I'm pretty sure Paul didn't spend the past 5 years twiddling his thumbs.

Playing devil's advocate can be fun and I'm all for spirited debate as long as it's done respectfully.

I don't get the crack about Tim Trono. Tim's been upfront that he's Paul's friend, etc. Tim's a writer, producer and creator and allot folks in the magic world value and seek his opinion. So, Tim giving an opinion about the set means something. He has the TA DVD's and is watching them and reporting back some thoughts. Lots of people have been asking for any info as they have been waiting for years for this set. As with anything in life, you can't please everyone.

So, Paul isn't performing on the set. But, we're told he takes us on the journey and is there in interviews, etc. Anyone that has read Paul's writing or watched interviews, knows that he has a philosophy about the performance of magic. I didn't get it at first and when I did, a light went on that changed how I view magic and perform it. So, that's what I'm most interested in.

Get Reel Magic issue 1 that has an interview with Paul. If you "get" what he's saying, you'll want the set.

As for the Hagar reference, I have a DVD that has a professional guitarist teaching Beatles tunes. It's not John, Paul and George teaching ( that would have been great ) but it doesn't take away that it's The Beatles music, note for note. So, Paul Harris has professional Magicians performing and teaching, under Paul's guidance.

Those are my thoughts and opinions.

I'm caught in the middle. How would you guys feel if the AOA series were advised by Paul but not written by him himself. It wouldn't have the same humour, points and so forth that it does as it is. Personally I am impartial, but I am thinking that a healthy debate can take our minds off it; if not at least until some new solid updates (trueastonishments.com anyone??) come about.

Unfortunately, this forum has made me incredibly excited for this release. I was not prepared to shell out this kind of cash but this seems to good to pass up. For those familiar with what you get:

1.Just how good is this?
2.Should you learn or invest in AoA first?
3.How skilled of a magician should you be before you consider buying this and why?
4.Are most of the effects close up?

I truly appreciate any thoughts. Since joining this Café I have made the right decisions for what suites my style because of your input and help.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

Actually, a lot of it was written by Eric Mead.

Mr. Muggle, I've been very open as to where I stand on this project. As I have reiterated numerous times, if you or anyone else has a doubt then you should either not buy this and move on to another product or you should wait until late January or so for reviews from others. As always, any information I give is my opinion and you may or may not agree with it so if in doubt just wait or pass on this. I do not appreciate you assuming I have any motivation other than sharing what I feel is a great project and answering questions put forth as I have seen these and been part of them for over 4 years. Again, I have never hid my involvement or bias in this. I don't make a dime off these DVDs or answering any questions - I share my opinion and my insight for whatever it is worth.

As to why Paul is not performing you may want to go through some prior posts by myself, Jason Messina, and most clearly explained in a post by Patrick Snowden (read his post). But I'll summarize. Paul is and always has been more of a creator than a performer. Obviously when he came out with his various books including Art Of Astonishment you didn't doubt the material because you didn't see Paul perform it. You took it for what it was worth. If it fit you style you worked on it. If it inspired you in another way you followed that path. If you didn't like it you passed on it. I can assure you Paul is the orchestra leader here. Every aspect of this project from the material to the production has had Paul's intimate involvement. Quite frankly if you add up all of the hours and expenses Paul has had on this project he will never recoup his investment and profit but from the get go he wanted to give the magic world a very important release and he has done precisely that. I know as I've been on the journey with Paul over the last four years. Paul wanted to have others do the material for a number of reasons: 1) many of the people you see are full time performers - when you have a full time performer it just gives a different feel 2) When Paul does perform now a days it is more for friends or acquaintances and is a more conversational style - this is not necessarily a style that translates to DVD where one wants to see quick reactions and basically just what the effect looks like 3) Paul wanted to break up the DVDs and have various people performing so one doesn't get bored and one can see the material done in a variety of styles and 4) Paul loves creating more than performing - shouldn't he do what he loves. Paul is all through these DVDs from interviews to his video Phoote Notes to creating many of the items to... much like AOA. If you are "worried about the overall hype of this release" you should either pass on it or just simply wait for more unbiased opinions to make your decision as it is a big investment and Jason, myself, etc. are Paul's friends as we have repeatedly noted.

I find your comment "what's he been doing the last five years? Has he been searching for someone to do the work for nothing more than name recognition?" disrespectful and out of line on several levels. I assume you are referring to Bro Gilbert when you advise "someone to do the work for nothing more than name recognition". Certainly Bro (or other talent on these DVDs) does not need this or deserve this. Although YOU may not know Bro, he is one of the most creative guys in our field and a very accomplished professional magician. He was one of the primary creative consultants for some of the biggest name TV magicians. He is also an excellent producer. Over the past number of years Paul has been creating, working with others on improving their items, and offering these wonderful items to us, the magic community. That's what he has been doing over the last 5 years. What have you been doing. I just find your tone and comments demeaning and unprofessional. You certainly have the right to ask questions but I'd hope you'd be a bit more professional and respectful. I would hope you pass on TA. I'd rather have Paul sell one set less. A lot of time, heart, and effort has gone into this. Again you are fine on voicing your opinion but when you come into it so disrespectfully don't you think that makes creators such as Paul, Bro, and others think twice about going through the aggravation, expense, and time to share when people approach it like you have. Imagine people like Paul, Dan Garcia, Wayne Houchin, Andrew Mayne, etc., just stopping, and not sharing with us. That's not far off. That is just my opinion.

Tim

Very well said Mr. Trono. With the respect they've been getting, creators will stop producing their magic. It's a shame...

Thanks. I can assure you I am seeing this between
1) people being disrespectful and having a sense of entitlement
2) people illegally duplicating items from creators and thus stealing from their pockets
3) people sharing items (ex. at magic meetings) and this stealing from the creators
4) people raking creators through the coals on these forums without facts... saying things they'd never have the guts to say in person just because they can hide behind a screen name
5) people openly exposing items on these sites
6) people stealing material and sharing on torrent sites

More and more I am seeing some of the top creators in our field question themselves about releasing items due to these factors I note above and a few more. Watch the latest Reel Magic DVD on the interview with Bob Sheets discussing this. It's happening. And that is a loss to us that appreciate the creative people sharing and releasing their creations. I can also assure you none of these releases are huge money making ventures. Even with TA I know the costs, I know the time, etc. and I can tell you point blank that Paul will most likely never make his investment back and if he does it will be minimal. So he's doing it to get disrespected or have his project get, have his project disrespected, or have his friends disrespected on the Magic Café???

Tim

I saw the interview on Reel Magic Magazine, and I felt bad for Mr. Sheets. I've seen him perform and he is great, and it's sad that he is losing money that way. I love to create my own magic, but a lot of the time I buy from creators. Without them producing magic, I have a feeling many magicians will drop from magic.

There was an issue about exposure on the Latest and Greatest... Steve Brooks made it acceptable to discuss possible methods on effects. That was a bad mistake.

The torrent and sharing are getting bigger and bigger. I recently was talking to a friend about Lonnie Chevrie's The Journey. He said he didn't like it. I asked if he owned it. He said no, they just watched the DVD at the magic shop. I don't think anyone deserves that.

Hopefully things change... soon.

I think the question of what Paul has been up to is a bit silly. Have you missed the whole serious of releases that say "Paul Harris Presents" on them? The Daniel Garcia Project, Linking Laces, Flow, and Ultra Visual Nightshades all come to mind immediately. I know they are more on the list but this shows that he hasn't been idle by any means.

Hi Mike. I'll take a shot at your questions but it's difficult as I just don't know where you stand as far as experience, skill level, etc. The material on TA is superb but if you are a beginner I might be able to point out better places to start then possibly later get this. Feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to help and, if necessary, recommend other items that might better suit you or tell you this will work for you if that is the case. As far as comparing it to AOA, I guess I'd recommend the DVDs as SEEING the material in action and seeing the timing on the moves might make it easier to learn. The material ranges the gambit from very easy to medium skill level. I don't consider any of the material as knuckle busting. Even on items like Wayne Houchin's Invisible Palm Aces the handling is filled with subtleties rather than difficult sleights. Paul, as you may or may not know, is a huge advocate of really refining pieces and using better technology to avoid moves or complicated sleights. Watch the interview with Paul on Reel Magic DVD #1 about this. Most of the effects on here are in fact close up items... effects with cards, coins, matches, leafs, business cards, bills, etc.

Tim

I hope these guys never stop sharing with the magic community. Much respect to Paul Harris and every brother magician.

Bob Sheets gives a great comment on the Reel Magic interview (The David Williamson interview is hilarious)... I'll paraphrase... he basically advises that as creators get hurt by people stealing, by being taken for granted, by people/clubs "lending" their items, etc. they (the creators) will start ONLY sharing with their very small groups of their very best friends... and you are not amongst them LOL.

OK back to TA.... sorry I took it slightly off track but I feel an important point came up.

Tim

Tim,

Maybe I missed something but do you know what time in January they could be released? It looks like some inside guys already have the set-just wondering.

Take care,
Doug

Hi Doug. We are expecting them around the 20th or so of January. The ONLY people that have a set of these at present are Jason, Bro, and myself. The DVD Masters, artwork, boxes, and props are at the replicator now but because of the size and complexity of the project it is taking longer than just normal duplication.

Tim

Man, the waiting is killing me...

Hi Tim!

Thank you for your quick response. I'm not a pro by any means (have not come close to mastering complicated sleights) but I have been doing magic for a long time. I'm basically addicted to it ! Besides children shows, close up is my thing so I guess I'm in on this one.

Also, thanks for offering to take the time to speak via pm. The help on this site is incredible. We are lucky to have talented creators who are willing to share and teach THEIR ideas for US to make our own. It obviously takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to produce something like this and thanks to people like you and Paul my performances get more and more magical.

Thanks,

Mike