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mindpunisher
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Markets are destroyed all the time by flooding with operators. Its a natural life cycle that exists in many industries and is common.

I stand to make a lot more money doing what I am doing now than doing shows. If I was medicore around 10 years full time pro then I was probably one of the best paid mediocre performers Ive ever met.

The fact is hypnosis largely successful due to cornering successsful venue's and milking them. Its more important to be a good marketer than a good hypnotist. There are more than enough good hypnotists around. Its the one's with the marketing machines that make the money. Or the one's that have cornered the key venue's.

One example is Paul Mckenna. He was a radio one DJ before becoming a hypnotist. From the very start he had the same pr company as the rolling stones behind him. Without that he would've remained in relative obscurity.

Hypnosis one of those things where talent is not the top quality. Its about luck timing and getting in key positions.

Although some people are cliaming its making a come back here Ive not seen any evidence whatsoever. And I can't see it happening for a long long long time.

If doing the odd rare pub show for a couple of hundred pounds is your thing then I reckon you could get excited.

In actual fact Robert halpern was a failed childrens entertainer. He went into hypnosis because it was "common" knowledge that failed entertainers could make it in hypnosis. he made millions because his timing was right.

I know this to be the case because his manager told me as approached me asking to manage me.

Hypnosis performance doesn't need a hige amount of talent just know how. That is the big secret. The rest is marketing and opportunity.

If Danny moved here he would fall flat on his face. He's found a bubble that can be sustained. Most of those expensive courses promising you big fees and a big career are ********ting you into parting with your money.

You've missed the boat.

When times were good no one in those key positions would want to train anyone. It was far more lucrative to keep the market to yourself. When times are bad they want to sell you any secret they can because its more valuable to sell them.

Its true I can't make what I would consider good money over here. But niether can Mckenna or Andrew Newton even with their marketing machines.

Despite what you may want to believe it doesn't take that much talent. My venue in my home town I was more successful than Newton, Powers and Halpern who all played the same venue but never sold as many tickets. Again I know this because Halpern's old manager did his homework before he approached me and that is what he told me. There ha been a string of other hypnotist also and I had been the most successful of all of them.

Why? Because my timing was right and my marketing which I had full control over due to it being my home town.
kingjay
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Wow .... touchy subject I guess..some bitter dudes on here... heres my 2 cents ... if youve got cash to spare.. get the course.. if not.. theres plenty other ways to learn... if your on a budget, look into nongards stuff (once again: the dvd w/ stokes is the easiest way to learn a stage show) .. a group live training is great too, (but not always all that).. geoffs book is great, more up to date... good luck
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-04-09 13:01, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis performance doesn't need a hige amount of talent just know how. That is the big secret. The rest is marketing and opportunity.


The same could be said about just about any area of entertainment.
mindpunisher
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Not really. For a singer or to get paid they need a considerable amount of talent. For a hypnotist to get paid they just need to master the mechanics. To reach the top you need a modicum of talent and good marketing. And also get into key positions in the market. A hypnotist is unlike most entertainers in that a hypnotist is a hypnotist while other forms of entertainment are more geared towards the individual talent.

Most bookers will go for the cheapest in a market over run with operators. This is a fact.

As for being bitter. I am taking a detached business view of the market. Its basic business and marketing principles as well as simple logic. When I was doing stage shows I had a detached logical mind also.

These hyped up courses promising you a lucrative career are designed to sell courses. And the more that spring up (including dvds and products)the less chance of you being able to achieve that. Its simply untrue to say that hypnosis or any market can withstand an ever increasing flood of operators. Eventually it will crash. that's the plain truth. IN ANY BUSINESS.

Im not saying you should or shouldn't go on the expensive courses. That not for me to say. What I am doing here putting some balance into the thread. I have no motivations other than to share what I know.
kingjay
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I just looked at the guys site.. super slick .. if his show schedule is true, ***! crazy mad cash! booked that much across the country.. he's doing something right.. nice
bobser
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Quote:
On 2009-04-09 22:16, kingjay wrote:
he's doing something right.. nice


Or presenting something right.. very nice
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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He seems to be happy with what he is doing, and not constantly putting up negative comments and acting bitter on the internet.

(Incidently MP I NEVER called you mediocre)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
CARNEGIE
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Hi all,
Let me state first that I am not a hypnotist. I don't have the course either. But one of my good friends who was a well known children's enterterainer purchased Michael C. Anthony's Course. He didn't know the first thing about hypnosis when he started. That was a year ago and he has done over 30 shows so far. He has a dozen more booked before the summer starts. So in his instance The Stage Hypnosis University program was very successful for him.

Dean Carnegie
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-04-09 19:10, mindpunisher wrote:
Not really. For a singer or to get paid they need a considerable amount of talent.


Uh, not really. Singers and bands have been marketed (usually to younger girls) and made fortunes.

I own a device made by a company called Antares that automatically and instantly corrects an out of pitch voice (or guitar note, etc.) and makes it perfect. There are devices that can take a thin voice and make it thicker and fuller. Combine this with dance trainers, coaches to tell performers what to say and planted articles and you can still have huge hits and successful concerts. When they were starting out, the manager of the Beatles handed out money to girls to come and scream when they appeared.
Dannydoyle
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Yea I thought that analogy was a bit weak as well.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 11:47, dmkraig wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-04-09 19:10, mindpunisher wrote:
Not really. For a singer or to get paid they need a considerable amount of talent.


Uh, not really. Singers and bands have been marketed (usually to younger girls) and made fortunes.

I own a device made by a company called Antares that automatically and instantly corrects an out of pitch voice (or guitar note, etc.) and makes it perfect. There are devices that can take a thin voice and make it thicker and fuller. Combine this with dance trainers, coaches to tell performers what to say and planted articles and you can still have huge hits and successful concerts. When they were starting out, the manager of the Beatles handed out money to girls to come and scream when they appeared.


Are you saying the beatles had no talent and never practiced? Or that their manager had no talent as a marketer of bands? Coaches do they not have talent? have they not practised for years in order to coach media personalities? These things are not within the reach of every band.

So are you saying then all we need is to pay someone to scream and we will be successful?

Your point only renforces what I said. Top singers take a lot of practice and whole range of talents to make them famous.

If you read the sales page of the course even that agrees with me.

The beatles had all of the above and one more very important element. Their timing was dead on. They also had some luck on their side. Years after as that market begins to peak then subside all the copy cat wannabees surface and go out and play for pea nuts until that style is no longer marketable.

Then the process starts again with something new and fresh. Being new and fresh and spotting the opportunity also takes hard work and talent.

With stage hypnosis you can get by on a modicum of talent. Its not difficult to learn. However to make it big you do need to get your timing right. Once the market is flooded then its unlikely you will get the space to achieve it.

Gee theres me being bitter and negative again. Maybe I should join fairy land with some of you on here and live happily ever after.
Dannydoyle
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All he was saying is that it does not take as much talent to be a singer as it used too.

Ask Mili Vanilli. Or the many who actually lip synch through the songs and concerts. Certainly Ashlee Sipmson was popular when she got caught.

Did not Elton John go after Madonna for lip synching?

As I said the comparison is weak.

As a matter of fact PICK a boy band in the past 20 years! Most are mediocre talent pushed by companies.

If you took your bitter cynical attitude you have for hypnosis and applied it across the board to other art forms, you would be outraged by these things. But your only goal seems to be to bash hypnosis in general except for how and where you do it that is.

Nobody was ever as good as you were, or will ever be as good as you were. We get it already and it is getting old. We get it you used to command high fees and for whatever reason, somoene ruined it for you and now the entertainment medium of hypnosis sucks and always will be low brow. Now despite every post you make being filled with bitterness, you are happy in what you were forced to turn to in order to make a living. Oh and you speak for the world. Give it a rest.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 13:39, Dannydoyle wrote:
All he was saying is that it does not take as much talent to be a singer as it used too.

Ask Mili Vanilli. Or the many who actually lip synch through the songs and concerts. Certainly Ashlee Sipmson was popular when she got caught.

Did not Elton John go after Madonna for lip synching?

As I said the comparison is weak.

As a matter of fact PICK a boy band in the past 20 years! Most are mediocre talent pushed by companies.

If you took your bitter cynical attitude you have for hypnosis and applied it across the board to other art forms, you would be outraged by these things. But your only goal seems to be to bash hypnosis in general except for how and where you do it that is.

Nobody was ever as good as you were, or will ever be as good as you were. We get it already and it is getting old. We get it you used to command high fees and for whatever reason, somoene ruined it for you and now the entertainment medium of hypnosis sucks and always will be low brow. Now despite every post you make being filled with bitterness, you are happy in what you were forced to turn to in order to make a living. Oh and you speak for the world. Give it a rest.


Again your interpetation is way off. I don't see any courses online teaching you how to become Manili Vanilli or a popstar. So I reckon despite what you say its not that easy?

However there are dozens teachng stage hypnosis products. Therefore It would be safe to deduce that stage hypnosis is easier to learn.

Where am I bashing stage hypnosis. I saod that the big secret is that its relatively easy to learn compared to most things. I would guess 80% or more on here couldn't make it as a singer but with a bit of application and luck could make it as a stage hypnotist.

Again go back and read the sales page of the course this thread is about. I actually agree with him on this point. I agree with him on a lot of the things said on the sales page.

The onlt thing I don't agree with is that the market is an infinate bottonless pit that will sustain everyman an and his dog. Now where am I bashing hypnosis? I don't see what you are seeing Danny?

Perhaps you prefer to believe that to be a stage hypnotist it takes special powers or talent I don't know? I have nothing against hypnosis infact I love it. However Ive made it clear many times I hate the cheap mass marketing of it.

I have also made statements about the dynamics of a market which would apply to any market. Why you should react the way you do is beside me.

I don't speak for the world I speak for myself. Why would I give it a rest? This a forum its called contributing. If you don't like it stay up later and try to think of smarter comebacks. Or just learn to put up with it much like I put up with you.

Except you usually end up looking a bit sillier. Maybe that's whats making you bitter? I have to say youve made me smile many a time with your feeble attempts to have ago at me. Maybe you should give it a rest?
dmkraig
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[quote]On 2009-04-13 14:08, mindpunisher wrote:

---Again your interpetation is way off. I don't see any courses online teaching you how to become Manili Vanilli or a popstar. So I reckon despite what you say its not that easy?


That's because the most important thing it take to make a music star is money and a producer and a manager who know what they're doing. And perhaps they're not advertising on line. I live in Los Angeles and see lots of local ads for such things requiring only a cute face and figure.


---However there are dozens teachng stage hypnosis products. Therefore It would be safe to deduce that stage hypnosis is easier to learn.


Just about everyone takes courses in mathematics when they're in schools. Surprisingly, only a small percentage of them become mathematicians! And for every hundred people who buy a stage hypnosis product, if just one goes into the profession that's a lot!


---Where am I bashing stage hypnosis. I saod that the big secret is that its relatively easy to learn compared to most things. I would guess 80% or more on here couldn't make it as a singer but with a bit of application and luck could make it as a stage hypnotist.

Define what you mean as "make it." By my definition, 80% here could easily make it as a singer with a bit of application and luck.


---The onlt thing I don't agree with is that the market is an infinate bottonless pit that will sustain everyman an and his dog.

I agree. But I see no evidence that every man and his dog are trying to get into the market. And don't forget the women!
mindpunisher
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Making it is quite easy.

By getting up and doing a stage hypnosis show successfully and getting paid for it.

Personally I could never get anyone to pay me for singing. I doubt very much despite the weak arguments that the majority on here could. But the majority could get hypnosis work so long as the market was kicking where they are.

Do a search on youtube you might even find a dog doing hypnosis.

Despite the ads you talk about. Most people who get paid for live singing gigs can actually sing. Even at the bottom end of the market they can sing a lot better than me or most people I know.

The school reference to maths isn't really relevant since school is something we must do. And by definition is academic rather than practical.

I have no figures on the percentage of those that go on to do paid shows from these courses. I only say that the majority of them should they have the opportunity could pull off paid shows. Of course I could be wrong and over modest on my own ability and talent.

Also the singers thing: manufactured puppets are really not in the same catagory of true singers anyway. However they still rely on the talent and contacts of the promoters.
Dannydoyle
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Are you naive enough to believe EVERYONE who buys the courses is attempting to become a stage hypnotist?

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30

They claim for $200 you can learn to sing. Have HUGE names like Taylor Swift.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 15:12, mindpunisher wrote:
Making it is quite easy.

By getting up and doing a stage hypnosis show successfully and getting paid for it.


I don't know if you've been to any clubs lately, but I've seen LOTS of singers who are horrible but who do shows and get paid for it. Success≠skill or quality.

Quote:
Personally I could never get anyone to pay me for singing. I doubt very much despite the weak arguments that the majority on here could. But the majority could get hypnosis work so long as the market was kicking where they are.


It would be easy to take a recording of you attempting to sing, do pitch correction, vocal thickening, echo, reverb, mix in with a band, and make you (or anyone else) sound like a professional. With a good producer you could lip sync your way to live success.

Respectfully, MP, stick to what you know, not what you don't know.


Quote:
Despite the ads you talk about. Most people who get paid for live singing gigs can actually sing. Even at the bottom end of the market they can sing a lot better than me or most people I know.


Like I wrote, you haven't been to many clubs lately! I seen people who can't sing become stars and people who are amazing singers never make it. When it comes to singing, you just don't know what you're talking about.


Quote:
The school reference to maths isn't really relevant since school is something we must do. And by definition is academic rather than practical.


On the contrary. It's completely relevant. Your posted assumption is that because there were lots of classes teaching hypnosis, people taking those classes must be becoming stage hypnotists. I'm pointing out that just because people take classes doesn't mean they'll ever use that information.

Further, you totally ignore the fact that to be a good hypnotist--IMO, at least--is about lifetime learning. You're assuming that every person who buys into a course is a new person trying to become a professional entertainer. I would suggest that a great many of those who take numerous courses from different suppliers are the same people looking for additional information that can either help them in their skills or give them the push to finally go pro--it's not a bunch of new people, many are the same people just buying from multiple sources. Further, I'm maintaining that most of the people who take the courses and may intend to become professionals never go through with it.

Quote:
I have no figures on the percentage of those that go on to do paid shows from these courses. I only say that the majority of them should they have the opportunity could pull off paid shows. Of course I could be wrong and over modest on my own ability and talent.


And without commenting on your ability and talent, you claims on others is 100% wrong. There's a big difference between theoretical knowledge of how to do a show and having the ability to pull it off. The number one fear of people is speaking in front of others. More people fear it than they fear dying. Based on that fact alone, most of the people who take those courses would be too fearful to set foot on stage.

Quote:
Also the singers thing: manufactured puppets are really not in the same catagory of true singers anyway. However they still rely on the talent and contacts of the promoters.


Hmm. Here in the U.S. we refer to what you're doing as "moving the goal posts." When it's clear that you're on the losing side of an argument, rather than admit it you attempt to change the argument. In this case, from talking about "successful singers," you change this to "true singers" and "manufactured puppets." Well, you can change the argument all you like, but the fact is when it comes to singers and the music industry, you don't know what you're talking about.
bobser
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Changing this ever so slightly, I'd like to think I'm a very good singer and very good at hypnotising people.
The thing is; singing for me is incredibly simple and yet I couldn't teach anyone how to do it... other than take someone who is already good and do some voice coaching, teaching them how and when to do a vibrato in a ballad, incoherently rasp in a rock song or bend a note on a slow blues number. But yet I would very comfortably take someone (with performance skills) and teach them hypnosis in either clinical or stage to a level where I'd expect them to pull it off to a watching audience.
As I read through what I've just written, if what I've written is true, and I believe it is, then I've ended up totally disagreeing with what I 'thought' I was going to say (LOL)!
Maybe the singing thing is obvious but also maybe there's more to being a hypnotist than meets the eye. John Chase, in his book Deeper & Deeper, wrote: "I can't teach you talent". I remember thinking of it as a WOW moment (I love WOW moments) when I read it and instantly agreed with him.

bobser
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Decomposed
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"I can't teach you talent"

Ha, so true and profound. Thanks, I needed that.

Candin
RobertTemple
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I haven't really heard of this guy before, however the course looks pretty comprehensive and its an impressive sales page.
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