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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Hello Gospel Guys and Gals,
This is my first time visiting your area of the Café'. I do not do Gospel Magic of any kind. Never have. Never will. It's just not my thing. I perform 5 nights a week in restaurants and specialize in Corporate Entertainment. With that said, I applaud you guys for tossing your silk in the hat so to speak in your own area of our art...bravo! I wish to pose a quandary to everyone in this area... Living out here in Dallas, Texas (The Baptist Bible Belt), it's not unusual to be told by someone that I'm evil b/c I do magic or they don't wish to watch my act b/c they're Christian. I never wish to perform for someone who doesn't wish to be performed for so I just blow it off and move on. I would say that 99% of the time, when this does happen, the people are very polite and just say no thanks. But... Then there are the people whom I refer to as Crazy Christians or the Christian Taliban. Basically...the Religious Extremists who make a big production out of what I'm doing as bad. A quick example... I approach a table and ask if they wish to see some magic. The folks at the table are very excited except for one person who becomes irate. They start yelling and screaming saying that Magic is the Devils work and that they want me to leave the table. I know that I will never change this persons perception so to avoid a problem I always do, and always when it happens, a part of feels very defeated. I had to sacrifice performing for a whole table of people who want to watch b/c of one person. With that said...I usually dust off the ego and move one. I remember about 15 years ago, I made the mistake of trying to argue with one of these people. Telling her that Jesus Christ was a Magician too. He could turn water into wine, walk on water, etc. The result...she slapped me across the face and said, "I will pray for you soul and hope the demons will go away soon." I was in such a state of shock I didn't even know what to do...so I did nothing and that was the end of it. So how do you guys, who perform in churches and religious meetings handle situations like this. I'm just curious...
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
You just politely smile and say, I'm sorry I offended you, please forgive me, then walk away. They are people who have been given bad teaching, or terribly misunderstand the Bible.
As for the table with others who wanted to watch, that person who objected just went down on the scale of likability with them. You shouldn't be embarrased, they did that themselves. I've been in a lot of Churches Christoper, 99.9% of the time I face no objection, mainly because they know what to expect when they have me come to their church. I did have to have an evening of teaching at the church I pastor because some were misguided in their views...I helped them see the light. Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss further... Terry |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
There are Christians that think anything to do with magic or playing cards is sinful and as you say, from the devil. Obviously everyone in this forum does not think that or they wouldn’t be a magician in the first place!
You are right about one thing, it is no use debating them. They will take ONE verse out the entire Bible and use it as their justification. When ever I meet up with a situation like this, I remind myself that I am not all knowing and wise either and try to respect their opinions, even if they are not showing me respect. I assume that their beliefs, how ever flawed I think they may be, are based in trying to do what is right in the eyes of God. Quote:
On 2008-11-25 10:15, lylemagic wrote: Don’t be so sure. God has a long history making surprising choices when it comes to doing His work. Ever read about Saul of Tarsus?
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Kif Anderson FCM forum Staff 1961 - 2012 386 Posts |
Lyle -
You are not alone. Many of us who are "Gospel Magicians" have a tough road to go. Mostly it is dealing with the reactions to those who do not understanding what the magician is doing. With all the magic tricks available everywhere, it is hard to believe there are people who believe a magic trick from demonic influence. But some people just seem to want to believe it. So we for the most part have learned to tread carefully when doing what we do. My advice would be to just respond in a situation where someone verbally comes off like that, "Please, I'm very sorry that I have done something that you perceive to be spiritual offensive. I respect your beliefs, and please understand it was not my purpose to cause you or anyone to feel this way. What I'm doing is a skill that I've learned, not based on some powers I claim to posses. I will to move on, and I hope this won't ruin your experience here at the restaurant here this evening." Something like that. Take the responsibility for doing something that they viewed to be hurtful (even though you and I really don't believe that is true) and explain that this is a skill learned. And take the heat off the restaurant. And by the way, Jesus was the real thing...not a magician doing tricks. Perhaps you have heard the story of Simon the magician in the Bible (book of Acts) who misunderstood that when he saw Jesus' disciples doing miracles. You might want to check that out. (Starting in Acts 8 verse 9) Thanks for your post. Hope that you don't have that problem again. Kif Anderson ozandwilde.com
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR> <BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
>> And by the way, Jesus was the real thing...not a magician doing tricks. <<
Kif...I know that of course. But at the time that situation occured, I was being yelled at, and was put on the defensive and was also a child. I know that He was the real thing and what he was doing was miracles and not magic. But like I said...I was a stupid kid trying to go mouth to mouth with one of these people and I lost in many ways. It was that reason that I decided long ago to walk away at peace but sometimes when I'm being almost harassed in public b/c of what I do, it's hard to do that.
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
At least you haven't burned at the stake yet. Fortunately I am quite flame-retardent.
Don't let them hurt you or make you feel down. I say make lemonade my friend. If it is that bad in Dallas, I'd be hoping for screaming protesters outside the show, the press and maybe evening a few seconds on the evening news. Publicity! They'll come see you just to see why the crazy people are all riled up.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Also, keep in mind that some groups who realize what we do is illusion will STILL steer clear of it because it involves DECEPTION; also seen as sinful, despite the intent. I'm told the Jehovah's Witnesses take that stance.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
You have to also take into account what might be the christians background. Some of them are not just misinformed or misguided.It's part of their belief system, and most of the time for a reason. Perhaps they used to be involved in witchcraft, or the New Age Movement, and for them, all magic is evil.(not excusing the fanatics who scream, "Demon, demon, demom. In the name of Jesus I rebuke you.)
There are also several other reasons why some christians don't like magic, or agree that it shouldn't be used. Some believe that once you receive the holy spirit, you have the gift of tongues, some believe in infant baptism, some believe in christian rock music, some christians believe in Gospel magic, etc. Others will condem it, but it comes down to each their own. Perhaps they came from a different part of the world where magic was used for evil influences of the black arts of voodoo. Maybe, just maybe, we're misguided(a thought). lylemagic; I think you did pretty good in handling it, other than saying to the lady Jesus did magic.(lol) You will get all kinds.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Phil J. Elite user 467 Posts |
I've never come across a situation like this whilst performing but I did at a job interview once. On my CV I had written 'Close-up Magic' as a hobby. The interviewer questioned me about it, but try as I might I couldn't get through. Then I tried a different approach 'I do tricks like Paul Daniels does - you know, on the television'. His reply, 'who's Paul Daniels?, we don't have a tele'. Turned out they were methodists. Didn't get the job, wasn't too upset about it.
You were born original... Don't die a copy
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Bendy Special user Columbus, Ohio 518 Posts |
Even in my own church - even when performing Gospel magic - I get those accusations for being a magician. I had originally referred to myself as an 'illusionist'; but have since stopped doing that. There is nothing shameful or evil about being a magician and I will not try to sell what I do as something more palatable to those who are likely to adhere to their incorrect views, regardless of what I do. There have been some who were concerned at first; but who changed their minds when they saw how strong the Gospel presentation was in my show.
Whenever someone accuses me of being evil or of the devil or demonic because of magic, I ask them why they believe that or what I do that makes me evil. Most have no answer. Literally no answer. Some have refered to the magicians in Pharoh's court who mimicked some of what Moses did. I answer this by telling them that I don't work for a Pharoh, nor would I try to negate God's work or His Word; because I know them to be true and worthy of supporting and sharing. You can learn a lot about how to proceed by just politely asking why they believe that. Most won't have any good answer and are adhering to something they were taught a long ago or are reacting with fear to something they don't understand. You can explain that nothing you do is "evil," but is designed to entertain, is a performance art, that you do not require, seek or accept any assistance from any spiritual forces and that everything you do is done by skill, that God created the laws of physics and in adhering to God's laws, everything you do can be explained within the confines of the laws of physics. If THAT doesn't successfully address their fears, politely excuse yourself from the situation and move on. If they say that they wiell pray for you; you can politely thank them. Satan worshippers rarely thank Christians for their prayers. That may also be a small seed that you can plant that will not change their minds at that time, but may start them on the path that allows them to eventually change their way of thinking about magic. The response I give most often is that it is an entertainment art and that everything I do, while skillfully done, fit within the laws of physics - laws which God created. I also state how it can be an effective means of teaching Biblical principles and sharing my faith. Being a Gospel magician, I am prepared to back that up; so I ask if they'll allow me to demonstrate. If they refuse, I thank them for their time and their prayers and move on. If they agree, I perform an effect for which I've created Gospel-oriented patter. I'd say I'm at about a 50% success rate with that. Half are pleasantly surprised. Half are offended that I would try to claim the name of Christ while using such an 'evil' tool. Those same type of people used to tell me I was going to hell for listening to Stryper, Petra, Bride, Mylon LeFevre and other Christian Rock groups. "You can't play the Lord's music with the devil's instruments," they'd say. ...While attending church and singing hymns being played on those same type of instruments. With closed-minded people like that who assume their opinions and God's opinions are identical, there's nothing you can do. All that being said - regardless of what you may or may not believe - you should NEVER suggest that Jesus was a 'magician.' Christians know Christ to be the Son of God and Savior of the world - fully God and fully man and the only person to live who was without sin. Suggesting that anything He did was 'magic' or anything less than authentic miracles proving His deity will result in further offense, if not very vocal objections to the contrary for which you may not be equipped to address. |
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Heres Tony Loyal user Orlando 259 Posts |
Great post Bendy!!
This topic always fascinates me. I think also the better a "magician" you are the more likely you are to run into a situation where people question you. People don't expect to see mind-blowing effects from a gospel magician. They expect to see dove pans, break-away-wands and change bags. About two years ago I was working with some other members of my church at an outreach ministry event. I knew these people. They knew me and knew what I did for a living, however they had never seen me perform. There were a lot of kids around and I started doing some closeup magic. I noticed out of the corner of my eye the adults staring with their mouths open. About a week later at church one of the adults came up to me and said, "we started to question if what you were doing was REAL!" Now these are grown people and I was not a stranger to them and we are not living in the backwoods of America, and they still said the above. It just goes to show you how strong magic is in the eye of the beholder. |
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Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Hey Tony, you can't be the top entertainment act in Orlando FL unless you have some "Evil help"....diablo. (You know that means fighting chicken according to Ricky Bobby.)
My Disclaimer: For all of those who may read the above statements and think I'm serious...I'm not. |
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Kif Anderson FCM forum Staff 1961 - 2012 386 Posts |
When I began doing gospel magic at my church for the children's ministry, I had a long discussion with our children's pastor. He wanted me to use the word illusion and not have the word magic used. I didn't want to say illusion...so I prayed about it and came up with the inspiration to call the act "FX4 Christ" (Effects for Christ) which is now the name of our non-profit organization.
So my advice to all...get creative. When we (Oz & Wilde) tell people what we do, some say, "So it's a magic show?" And we reply saying that some might call it that, but since there are those who have trouble with the word "magic" we prefer to call them "effects". One other name we've used is "Mysterious Object Lessons."
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR> <BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com |
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tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1787 Posts |
The yellers & screamers you will never change they are highly misinformed & opinionated, You are doing the right thing smile, thank them for their time & walkawAy.
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
I think many evangelicals have become overly sensitive to terms. I once referred to a "technique" of prayer, and a woman in my acquaintance became very irate. I wasn't aware that a perfectly good anglicised greek word had become inappropriate.
Rather like a poster being afraid to use steamboat cards because the 999 might be mistaken for 666, if you are running in groups where such things might be an issue, you have bigger problems than calling yourself a "magician". |
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CurtWaltermire Special user Curtis The Mentalist 505 Posts |
Christopher,
Though this thread is several weeks old, I thought I'd take a stab at putting in a couple more cents into the kettle. A lot of good input has already been given. It is always the right thing to graciously back off when it comes to anyone who is unwilling to see some magic, regardless of their reasons. I was a holiness pentecostal preacher at one time for several years, and believe me, it is of no use to engage the more radical, outspoken sects of religion in debates over anything, let alone the subject of "magic." It is not the same as working in a night club and having a heckler that you must deal with. These people sometimes create awkward and embarassing situations that are uncomfortable indeed, yet the only real way to deal with it is to let it take its course and let the dust settle. They are usually embarassing themselves, anyway. You don't have to have the upper hand. Maintain your professional courtesy and dignity, and focus on those who want to be entertained. In my church shows, I make it very clear that I am merely an entertainer and possess no special powers. I am just "an ordinary guy who does some EXTRA-ordinary things". The Word of God is full of amazing and wondrous things that God has done, and the art of magic is a wonderful and fascinating way to demonstrate and illustrate the truths of it. Image goes a long way, so if you take yourself real seriously as a magician, or present an image of bizarreness or mysticism, then you're more likely to draw fire like what you're describing. In all of your years in the business as a pro, I'm sure you've realized that rejection is just part of the business, and happens to everyone, including the best magicians. I can only suggest that you continue to stifle any urges to retaliate, smart-off, or debate any contentious, religious audience members. Be friendly and move on. Sometimes saying nothing is best. It heaps coals of fire upon their head. Curtis http://www.CurtisMagic.com
Curtis Waltermire
Mentalist/Magician/Speaker/Actor/Grandpa/Cool Dad & Above-Average Husband CurtisTheMentalist.com YouTube Channel My Touring Public Show "The Mastermind Show" Check Out My Podcast "The Mastermind Show with Curtis The Mentalist" |
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MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
As D.L. Moody said (or something similar) when he was criticized for his "crude" form of evangelism of rounding up Chicago kids and bringing them to Sunday School (often by having a mini parade in the street): "I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it at all." It is spiritual warfare, if you try to accomplish pretty much anything for the Kingdom, including in any form of evangelistic outreach using Gospel magic, expect to be "commented on" or "constructively criticized." As a former Elder at two very large churches (over 1,500 each) and chairman of a large rescue mission (over 44 paid staff members), it often "amazed" us all what would come up to thwart anything significant that was attempted. Our adversary is the unGodly world (quite obvious), our own flesh (sin nature), and the Devil. Carry on!
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John Long Inner circle New Jersey 2826 Posts |
I didn't read all of the above, so this may have already been said..
If there was the opportunity to say anything, I might briefly say that what I do is not (real) magic, but illusion, special effects without the aid of a computer or camera tricks, just as the movies are not real, but for your entertainment... but if you don't want that, that is ok. and walk away.
Breathtaking Magic;
Not Breath Taking |
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revmike Special user Annville, PA 646 Posts |
As a Christian Pastor who does both "secular" magic and "gospel" magic most times I have an educational segment in my show where I talk about what it is that I do. As you have already heard, what we do as magicians has nothing to do with the biblical concept of "magic". We are entertainers and yes, I read the comment above about using deception in some of the effects we do, and while that is actually accurate, I prefer to think of what we do by using a theatre term, "the suspension of disbelief" - Most people want to be entertained - they know we can't really levitate items when they think logically, that we can't change the faces of cards, but they are willing to be entertained, just as they know there is no Superman or Batman but they are willing to go to the movies and watch the film to be entertained.
As magicians we are entertainers. Gospel magicians are also not only entertaining, but also proclaiming the Gospel.
The magic is not in our sleights and illusions, but instead in our ability to bring love and joy.
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Gene "Oz" Oswald New user 99 Posts |
We are all just human and we do the best we can.
I had a group one time BLOCK the door of a church I was invited to. They were determined I was not going in the door. When I said, OK, I'll go home that set them back. They asked, your just going to go home? I said, I am not going to force myself on you. We then talked calmly, I asked some questions, then I said, let me set-up, let me show you what we are going to do and then you decide! I did, they liked it and we did the program. But that only happened ONCE. I have had people ask questions, but not in an angry manner. Be calm, use your head.. it is NOT about you-- it is all about them. Sorry you had the experience... but we have all met SAINTS on a mission... but they are few and far between |
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