Hello I was wondering what you all think of using animals in your act for example Lion for the Lady to Lion Illusion ?

I would like to see where the magic world sits on this highly sensitive subject many greats of magic have used animal in there shows but is it right to put these animal in that situation ?

I would like to know what you think ?

lets debate

I think it depends on the animal. I've seen dogs used in shows and they appear to be having a great time. The few times that I've seen horses in shows, they appear to be right at home on a stage.

Back when the Federal Government wasn't breathing down people's necks, I had a rabbit that loved the attention from the kids at the shows. Enforcement of Federal regulation made it unprofitable to use him in a show, so he was given to a friend.

I've seen big cats in shows that just made me feel sorry for them. When an animal has sores from sleeping on a cold, hard floor, I only see a mistreated animal - it detracts from the show.

Most dove workers, who I've met, care a great deal about their birds. I did run into a jerk who did a competition act at a convention who cared nothing for his birds. When some of them flew off during his act, he just left them in the room to fly around during the convention. Many people complained about this guy, and rightfully so.

No laws will ever really protect animals in shows. It's up to us to pressure those who mistreat their animals.

Animals are not props. You you use them in your show you better be ready to take care of them as pets and members of your household. The decision you use even rabbits and doves in your act is a huge responsibility one should be sure they are willing to take on. Having said that, the use of animals makes your show seem bigger for lack of a better way to put it.

Try wrestling with a Burmese python on and off stage. I've been doing just that for over twenty years now.

There is plenty to consider before adding any type of animal to your show. Not only the investment in some of the larger props but, the commitment if you plan on keeping that animal with you. You can't even imagine what a vet bill for a reptile can be.

I guess it really depends on the type of work you do, if the addition of animals are vital to your act. For my show it's just icing on the cake. During the winter months the snakes stay home. I'm more concerned with their health than anything else.

Steve

The three rules of film-making: do not work with animals, kids, or puppets.

It's lucky most of us don't make films, since almost everyone here works with at least one of the three.

-Erik

Working with animals is a HUGE responsibilty as stated above. Its not just the show, its the 'at home' care and treatment. They are pets before anything else. I, being a dove worker, am most concerned about their health than anything else (as Chezaday). Its very time consuming to keep all the cages cleaned, proper vitamins, food, and vet checkups every year. Not to mention very costly. I think working with certain animals in shows is a very unique thing and makes the shows better. They are great conversation and sets the performer one step ahead in certain areas. At the same time, however, there are certain venues that don't want animals being used, so that is respected and the performer must be prepared to go on without his/her pets.
I think it all depends on the type of animals, and also as mentioned, how they are perceived when introduced.

I use my doves as an opening act -the rest is without.

Good debate. Everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

I have been using my parrots to perform with me for the past 15 years now. Yes, it is a lot of work. Yes, I care for them a lot. I feel what they feel. And I enjoy these intelligent animals.
I never put them in a harness.
http://www.louhilario.com

To me. It depends on many things including...
The animal, its living conditions, working condition, how it is cared for, etc.etc.etc.

http://www.dawnwatch.com/entertainment.htm
http://www.api4animals.org/a1_entertainment.php

Animals are great. People love them. Even if the illusion blows, they'll love the animal. Just make sure it's still alive when you produce it.

I don't enjoy watching shows with animals in. I guess there might be certain situations where I wouldn't object to animals in a show - but only in quite limited cases. I really dislike acts that use big cats and other species for which confined spaces are paricularly un-natural (I dislike seeing big cats in conventional zoos, the only places they look OK in captivity are in big parks).

As others have said, if you're going to have animals in an act then you're taking on a big responsibility - they need to be treated well and that's often much more difficult to do than people think.

I don't think that even if ones trys to you cannot care for a Big cat as it should live. I don't think it is natural for a big cat to be put into small spaces to perform and then spend all day and nights in cages travelling to the next location.

It get worse when magician hire these animals from a circus that is nearby and they use them for the one show. They also run the danger just like what happend to Hans Klok who nearly got heavly injurd by one.

I wish they banned big cats from entertainment and for that that anything animal with is not domesticated. An elephant was not created so that we can make it appear in a car park I don't think.

I have heard many horror stories from doves acts in the past hence why I don't go anywhere near doves in magic.

Personally, I’ve never used animals of any kind in my act… it might be politically correct to say it’s because I’m a PETA member, but I’m not an animal rights activist or a strict vegetarian and I wear leather shoes. The reason is; animals are unpredictable, and can die, poop, or attack, at any given moment.

On the other hand, as anyone who has watched a TV talk show with guests from a zoo will tell you… whether you choose livestock with feathers, fur, scales, or a hard shell, you can count on them pleasing any crowd.

I don't have a problem with animals in tight spaces or anything, as long as they are not being hurt and don't have to spend much time in there.
And I am a animal lover!!

The reason...
If the animal was living in the wild, it would more likely be food for another animal.
If it's not prey, than it's the preditor that has to constantly search for food and risk starving to death.
If they had the ability to reason, and spent time in the wild and in a show, I think they would pick the show.

On one side they have people bathing, feading, cleaning up after them, and all they have to do is be in a show.
Or...
They can risk being lunch for some other animal, or starving to death.

I would pick the show!!

Randi

Good points Randi, still, when working magic with beasts... the unexpected should be expected. For anecdotes about a panther who was probably in a tight space a bit too long, a well-cared for leopard who got outta control, and a humorous bird incident; check out the Live Animals thread when I was the Chef Special back in January 2008.

Randirain you state it yourself "If they had the ability to reason" that's the main reason why it should not be allowed because they don't have choice.

Your reason as to how they live in the wild is beyond any understanding as that is something called natural life. A right which everything single living thing on the plant is born with.

They are not born to be in the back of a lorry for years !

I don't understand how people can see this as better for the animal !

No, But I have the ability to reason and I know they have a better life as a performer than they do in the wild. So therefor I will make the choice for them, they will be better off.


But there natural life sucks!! Who wants to be eaten? What a horrible way to die!


Lorry.. must be a Brit thing.
Any way...
When I went to the Ringling Bros. Circus, there were protesters out there saying how cruel they are to the animals.
They couldn't be more wrong!!
Those animals have it made in shade!!
First, I knew one of the performers and was able to go back stage.
Second, before the show they let you come see the animals.
I walk in and there is an elephant laying down get blowed with a leaf blower.
He was in hog heaven!! As we say here in Texas.

You see those old movies about egypt where the pharro is laying down with some slave fanning them.
That was the seen I saw.
Only the pharro was an elephant, and the slave was just some guy.
And instead of a palm leaf, it was a leaf blower.
Yeah! Poor elephant!!

As long as they are being treated right, you are doing them a favor.
That's how I see that it's better for the animal.
They get better food. They get better care. They get to live longer.
Quite simple actually.

Where is the Snake Babe?
Ask her how well her animals are treated and what she thinks.

Randi

Randirain I think you and your comments are just ridiculous you even mention the establishment with the most allegation of ill treatment of animal.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpxzEXeW4ok

Using bull hooks to make animals do things is not right and no you do not have an reason at all you must be joking when you state that an animal is better in a circus than in the wild. Have you lost your mind ?


"But there natural life sucks!!" - That has to be the most outragous comment anyone has ever said in history !

Magic3 said:



Do you think domesticated animals started that way?

Destiny

I'm going to admit that I have a double standard on the front end of my comments. I would never use animals in my performance for a number of reasons but I have seen spectacular performances that I love using them. First, my personal philosophy. I am involved in the animal health industry and find restraining an animal in a fixed position waiting to be produced and then suddenly thrust into the center of attention is rather stressful against the innate behaviors of most animals including many humans. Animals handle stress very differently than humans causing debilitating affects on their health which may not be apparent. Depending on the animal, desensitization may reduce overt stress while some actually enjoy the attention though this does not occur at their time and comfort. My second concern is the obvious risks of transport and ambient environmental changes. This can pose life threatening hazards for even the best managed pets. Many of you are experts in their care and no doubt place their welfare as a high priority though some innocently don't realize true stressors with conditions that may appear to be quite normal.

Please realize there is a profound distinction between "Animal Rights" groups and "Animal Welfare" advocates. Most animal rights organizations have bizarre attitudes about animal enslavement versus those welfare advocates who are concerned about responsible and ethical treatment of animals. Many of these well funded groups have extreme beliefs and hide their agendas behind images of obvious abuse situations or emotions of homeless pets.

With all of that said, a good dove worker still takes my breath away and watching Dave Womach produce a parrot is a brilliant sight. The use of big cats is solely for shock value and usually adds little value to the what would be an otherwise amazing illusion. So while I would never use an animal in my performance, I remain a big fan of some tremendous performers who do. Please be certain to keep very high standards of your animals' welfare, keep meticulous written health records and don't skimp on routine professional veterinary care. In today’s crazy world, you only need one minor accident to become a headline of abuse.

Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents worth.
Dan.

You need to get your facts straight.
That video is not Ringling Bros.
Just because someone posts a video and says it is, doesn't make it so.
Ringling Bros. have their own elephant conservation.
They are one of the leaders in animal care.
http://www.ringling.com/FlashSubContent.......erID=324
So do more research than just watch youTube before you talk to me.
Because I have.
Ringling Bros. is an amazing organization.
You would be shocked at all the things that they do!!

But saying their natural life sucks, was just an easier way of saying...

Living in the wild, you get fleas, mosiquetos, drink water with parasites, all kinds of viruses and bacteria, have to search for your food, have to worry about being food, competition with other animals, drout, weather, etc, etc...
All things that shorten your life span and make it miserable while you are alive.

Or...

You could live in a zoo or show business...
Then you get humans waiting on you hand and foot, health care, you get to be clean, free food, protection, and you get to live a long happy life.

Don't tell me I have lost my mind!!

Randi