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MindSeeker Regular user 181 Posts |
I think Shuren means Messiah.
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts |
Interesting interview . . .
Didn't Derren catch some flack in his earlier years by posing as the real deal? I also notice how dumb he played when Peter P. was brought into question and using an earpiece. Why didn't he spill the beans on himself? Oh, I understand now - it's okay to talk about others work as long as the methods he uses are not divulged. Skeptics giving a cold reading expose is always good for a laugh! I chuckle inside every time I think of Ian Rowland actually giving a reading; the thought alone is hilarious. Way to go, Derren! -JF
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I've never seen Ian Rowland perform nor do readings so I cannot comment, but people who have seen him speak highly of him.
On Derren's examples, what he spoke of does ring true of, and describe the stage readings given by most every magician and mentalist I've seen. Tony |
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wordSMITH Regular user 197 Posts |
Just to clear things up, the Richard Dawkins show that this was filmed for was, as Anthony rightly said, called 'The Enemies of Reason' and was another of Dawkin's dances through ultra-skepticism. The episode in question attempted to debunk physics and mediums (I think there was a section on dowsing in it as well) - and there was a very short clip from the interview with Derren in it.
... The show that Shuren referenced was 'Messiah,' where Brown visited several key figures in various belief systems and hoaxed them on their own subject. The premise was that if anyone asked if it was all a trick, he would come directly out and say "yes." It didn't directly debunk any of the systems, but merely showed how much people were willing to believe, and how easily he could get an approval from a market leader. In 'Messiah,' Brown deals with alien abductions, mediums, the New Age market (through a dream-catcher machine), psychics and Christianity. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Just as there are some people who scam others out of money deliberately - does not mean all people are scammers...
I kinda dislike Dawkins in some ways - only some, but he's a fundamentalist too in his own way - and any form of fundamentalism is dangerous.. though intrinsically - fundamentalism - is quite ironic when you think about it... and who puts the fundament in it?! I'd like to see him have a go at other beliefs though - to be seen as more fair and open - let him have a crack at the Koran (not Al), and see what happens... as for the interview - it seemed, and I mean seemed that what they were doing was suggesting that ALL people who do it are out to scam people for their money. Admittedly, some do. However, they don't touch on the work of others who do it within the framework of entertainment and don't mention dead relatives and friends. Ultimately - I think Derren's heart is in the right place. Otherwise his blood wouldnt circulate properly obviously. But from what I've read - isn't andy nyman religious? I may be wrong...i thought he was? I doubt if Derren is constantly on at him to give it all up. In reality, he no doubt just respects his decision and leaves it at that. maybe we could all do a bit more of that?
I've asked to be banned
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LukePreston Regular user 138 Posts |
I don't think I understand your 'let him have a go at the koran' line. Dawkins rails against religion and belief in God in general - not just Christianity, or psychics, or whatever.
It comes across a bit like 'let him have a crack at the koran so he gets death threats from nutters, ha ha', although I doubt it was meant that way. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm saying for the most part, Dawkins rallies against Christians more than anyone else...
there's also the point that to be scientific in your approach, you have to "test" across the board - so other faiths and beliefs should all go under his microscope... hope that clarifies my point... I'd like him to tackle buddhists and muslims, to seem more balanced and fair.
I've asked to be banned
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
The other close-minded religion he should examine is skeptianity.
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-13 15:28, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Don't get me wrong, Ian Rowland is a scholar and a gentlemen. He was very kind and professional when I met him and I learned a lot about what not to do or how to act from reading his book which I continue to recommend to magicians. I have a lot of respect for Ian for his other work. My point was this: skeptics who do something they wish to debunk, expose, ridicule and scoff at cannot possibly enjoy themselves while giving readings, especially while trying to remember all of their adorable stock lines and unremarkable phrases to garner 'hits' and 'yes' answers. My opinion. I thought Nyman was religious, too. I doubt Derren tries to expose his spirituality, sacred books and belief system, but what do I know? Perhaps someone could chime in and give us more info about the days when Derren tried to pass himself off as the real thing? -J P.S. I want to clarify that when I say I learned a lot about what not to do from Ian's book, I am referring to the use of lines such as, 'You have a scar' or 'There was an accident in your childhood' and other stock information. Also about the philosophy of feeding CR through any oracle of your choosing without knowing much about the system or instrument being utilized.
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MR2Guy Regular user Nashville 179 Posts |
I think Derren did a great job of walking the line regarding giving out some techniques charlatans use to prey on victims, and keeping back some of the more eclectic material.
It's interesting that Derren was never asked about how he personally balances on the knife edge of disclaiming his performance, and allowing an amount of ambiguity to allow the spectator to question presumptions. The positive sides of performing mentalism, producing resonant emotional impact on an audience was not discussed. By no means am I saying the ends justify the means... but I do think that an artist can influence people positively, and they can take the experience with them to improve themselves. The works of Rex Sikes spings to mind. Jason
Question every rule.
There are no absolutes. |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
I work along side a half dozen or more psychic readers every day. None of them claim to speak with the dead. I doubt that any of them would know what you meant by Cold Reading. They do their thing and most people seem to be satisfied with it.
Seems like DB kind of invents these "Vampire" like readers by describing what he would do or how he would do it, in order to siphon off the most money. I don't see it happening that way. Kind of like ... "I'd fake it this way, so that's what they must be doing." Pretty shallow really (Plus, I never liked the way he exposed Corinda's work to the public)
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
I think it might have been Corinda that exposed his own work when he published. Hardly 'dragged into the light', but point taken.
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-12 23:25, Dan McLean wrote: What..., how do you know??? |
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Ross Elite user Bristol 477 Posts |
I really enjoyed watching that. He's such a charming man is Derren. I could watch him talk about anything probably.
When did Derren expose Corinda? Best wishes, Ross |
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Jon_Thompson Inner circle Darkest Cheshire 2404 Posts |
Do you know, on the occasions when I've done tarot readings in the same place as a real reader, it has simply spurred me on to give more impressive readings than the real thing. Has anyone else found this?
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 14:00, Ross wrote: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0 He actually only beats five unlike the title of the video This is in The Thirteen Steps to Mentalism by Corinda. He fully explains it on TV. Bad form IMHO (But I may change my mind if offered enough money....NOT) It's not his idea to expose in that way. If he wants to expose one of his own magical inventions then let him ... If not, then he should quit exposing things that are not his, much like the Masked Magician of Mentalism Don't get me wrong. I LIKE DB but I don't care for the exposure of an effect my daughter was working on. Neither did she.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
I remember reading a cheesy novel in the 80's (don't ask why I was reading my mums rubbish books) where the heroine gets involved in a chess game against multiple opponents and uses exactly this approach. It is exposed there.
In the DB effect the chess exposure is out done by the 'prediction' of how many chess pieces will be left and the fact that he still beats a grandmaster. I think it is simply Derren presenting something wonderfully that is just about on the cusp of popular knowledge, giving just enough away to ensure his audience feel like they have learnt something but still leaves them baffled. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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Ross Elite user Bristol 477 Posts |
Ah yes, I remember now. The Chess thing. Great piece. Thanks.
I'm not sure where I stand on the partial give away of the method. I think some subtle exposure like that can draw audiences in, and add texture to a show. Derren has done that a few times (Princess card trick; wooden hoop in the dark; Forer effect). It can also provide for some misdirection. But I take your point. Best wishes, Ross |
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Ross Elite user Bristol 477 Posts |
Very well said Anthony. I think you summed that up perfectly. It was a masterful piece.
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 15:43, Anthony Jacquin wrote: Yes. It was "If Tomorrow Comes" one of the most successful novels written by Sidney Sheldon. The heroine there played against 2 people only. However they both were masterchess champions in their respective nations. And if my memory serves me right she does not "technically" win but rather she forces both players to call the game a "draw" and she has them abandon the game.
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