The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Making a box look deceptive? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
The Magic Ref
View Profile
Loyal user
Flint, Mi.
284 Posts

Profile of The Magic Ref
Hi again,

Now that I have solved the wood mystery (Thanks to all of you), the next question is this... I'm making my box with a false back that is apx. 5 inches in front of the real back. When you open the box from the front (think Mirror box type door), you see the back wall. The problem I see is that descriminating minds can tell the back wall is farther forward than it should be. I'm sure I read somewhere how to make a deep box look shallow from the outside or a shallow box look deep from the inside. Does anyone know a good source that shows how to achieve this deception? The other thing I could do is use black art on the inside, this way you can't tell where the wall is in the back. I don't mind using black art I have the material, I'm just not sure if it would look strange having the inside of a bright colored box jet black on the inside. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike
Be Young...Have Fun!
Matthew W
View Profile
Inner circle
New York
2456 Posts

Profile of Matthew W
Put it on a slant so that the bottom is further back. The top of the false wall should not be in the corner.

Are you using it is if it was a mirror box? Or as a production box where the wall will go down or collapse?
-Matt
Spellbinder
View Profile
Inner circle
The Holy City of East Orange, NJ
6438 Posts

Profile of Spellbinder
Stripes painted down the side walls become thinner and thinner as they go towards the back. Then across the false wall, the same thin stripes as the last ones painted on the sides convince the mind that it is further back than it is. Assuming you've had one or two drinks.
Professor Spellbinder

Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry

http://www.magicnook.com

Publisher of The Wizards' Journals
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Am I correct in assuming that the false wall you are making/have made is parallel to the back wall?? If so, without sufficient depth to the entire box, it will be diffult to make the illusion of full depth convincing. Spellbinder's idea is good up to a point, as he hinted at with the drinking comment.

Black art may be your best solution at this point, assuming again that you already have the box built. More on this in a second.

For what it's worth... next time, get your ideas fully fleshed out before you start building, unless you are making a cheap prototype for experimentation. Think it all out and draw everything on paper, too. Paper is a lot cheaper than wood.

Re: black art - Sometimes, just opening the box to reveal a black interior leaves question... Is it too dark inside to see something? You can enhance the illusion that black art creates by having something visible in the box when you first open the front door. Remove this before proceding with your trick. What this does is subtly suggests that since there was something in the box, which could be seen, and now it has been removed, and nothing else was seen in the box, that it must be empty, open space now. The same principle applies with Square Circles. The tube inside is the object that occupies the interior space. Removing it logically implies that the interior space is now empty.

If you have a slant black art wall going from top front to bottom back, this gives full front to back depth at the bottom, and an even more convincing illusion can be created, as wider objects can be placed in the front compartment. The downside to this design is that the front compartment is typically only accessible through the front door.

There are so many different magic boxes that all have designs that are similar, yet different, that it sometimes becomes a matter of basing the decision of which to use on exactly what trick you want to do with it. It is rare to find one that gives you every feature for every application.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
makeupguy
View Profile
Inner circle
1387 Posts

Profile of makeupguy
You could just make the inside darker.. without doing the whole back art thing.

I'd start by airbrushing a darker color into the corners... and then finish the wood with something like teak oil.. or another oil that turns the wood a bit darker.

The darker nature of the inside of the box MAY help hide it's depth without having to turn completely to the dark side.
Thomas Wayne
View Profile
Inner circle
Alaska
2240 Posts

Profile of Thomas Wayne
One other trick with the variable-width stripes that will enhance the illusion substantially is if the outer sides are not readily visible when the inside IS visible.

How to achieve that? Simple; have the front open with two doors that swing outward to each side - when the doors are open they block a full and complete view of the [outer sides]. This principle has been used in many stage illusions, and there's no reason it can't be equally effective with a smaller prop.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Quote:
On 2009-01-04 21:50, Thomas Wayne wrote:
One other trick with the variable-width stripes that will enhance the illusion substantially is if the outer sides are not readily visible when the inside IS visible.

How to achieve that? Simple; have the front open with two doors that swing outward to each side - when the doors are open they block a full and complete view of the [outer sides]. This principle has been used in many stage illusions, and there's no reason it can't be equally effective with a smaller prop.

TW


Excellent!!
~michael baker
The Magic Company
The Magic Ref
View Profile
Loyal user
Flint, Mi.
284 Posts

Profile of The Magic Ref
Thanks to all of you. Spellbinder I was thinking that might be the answer when I was brainstorming on it last night. I think I will give that a try, thanks.

Matt this is actually not a mirror box. Here is my idea that I am working on. I didn’t want to tell it until I was all done but everyone has been really helping me so why not. I'm making an effect I am going to call the "Lego Shake N Make".

Michael, thanks for all your help so far, the wood from Michaels was perfect. I went to Lowes and bought a Kobalt sliding miter saw. Wow! I can’t believe how much easier this is with this saw! Of course I was just looking for any excuse to buy a saw..LOL.. I have my wood cut and sanded and thankfully for the reasons you stated I have not assembled them yet. The original box I made that I found out it didn’t look right was just a mock up. I’m trying to decide on black art or paint inside at this point. Here is a description of the basic effect I want to achieve.

The bare bones effect without any routine is this. You introduce the Lego Shake N Make box and start your routine. You can dress the kids up in a baking costume, or use the funny wands bit here or whatever your theme might be. You put the separate Lego pieces in the Shake N Make and then have the kid shake it up and down. You could have then jump up and down to shake it. Jumping up and down would be funnier but if there is laughter at this point you might lose the other effect. Which is as they shake it they hear all the pieces rattling, then the noise starts to disappear. Then even though they are shaking it the noise stops all together. You hear it get quiet and you say it must be done making, you open the front door and show the finished Lego product. Taaa Daaa... Smile

Here are some photos of my rough draft mock up box. I also spent about 5 hours and made a Shake N Make box out of actual Lego’s. Here are pics of each one. My wife thinks the Lego box is over kill and likes the regular box better. What do you all think? I was thinking of painting it Gloss Red or Gloss Yellow and put the Lego Shake N Make words on the sides.

To make the Lego’s make noise and then stop making noise I was thinking of gluing small strong magnets inside of each Lego piece. Actually 2 magnets inside each one, one on each side of the Lego. Now when you shake it, they will start to connect to each other, and then all become connected and all you would hear is one big thud. Unfortunately after finger tips full of dried super glue, and several Legos pieces with small Neo-Magnets glued inside, I’m sad to say it didn’t work. It’s back to the drawing board for this. Al Munro suggested I shim the Lego’s and put strong magnets on the walls of the inside false back of the box. Maybe they will stick. Does anyone have any other ideas for this?

Here is the link to the photos of what I have done so far. I must say it has been a lot of fun for me so far learning to use the saw and the wood etc.. It’s amazing how making a simple box is difficult if you have never done it before.

Here is the link to the pics
http://s444.photobucket.com/albums/qq161......%20Make/

THANKS
Mike

Posted: Jan 4, 2009 10:22pm
Thomas, I second Michael's thought Excellent!
Be Young...Have Fun!
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
It's always hard to tell in a two dimensional photo, but the illusion of full depth is not horrible. In fact, it looks pretty good. For your application, attention would be focused on the completed object inside, rather than an empty interior trying to pass as just that.

You can enhance the illusion by painting the outside of each panel with a darker border surrounding a lighter center. This will make the sides look smaller than they are. If the interior of the box is painted a lighter shade than the exterior of the box, it will make the interior space seem larger still by comparison.

After seeing the box, I don't think black art is needed.

The box made of Legos is fascinating. I wonder if the exterior was a solid color if it would make it less "busy". If the interior still had the multi-color pattern, it may add to the deceptiveness. It would be harder to focus on where walls actually meet.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Spellbinder
View Profile
Inner circle
The Holy City of East Orange, NJ
6438 Posts

Profile of Spellbinder
I like the Legos Box. You don't see one like that every day and it looks very deceptive just because of the busy pattern. Even though you can't really make out the production item when seen against the Legos in the photo, I'm sure it will stand out in 3-D and it won't always be inside the box, so it will be perfectly visible when you take it out.

You're making too much out of the noise. The only ones who will hear it are the kids shaking the box. It hardly seems worth the effort. Think about some funny electronic noise makers with blinking lights.

This is not so much a production box as it is a change box, since you have to get rid of a bunch of loose Legos and replace them with something made from Legos ( I assume). You could accomplish this with a loop of thread attached to the production item and the top door. When you open the top door, it raises the production item up out of the hiding space and swings it behind the door where it can then be lowered into the front production space. This also would free up the back space to receive the loose Legos. Lining the back space with felt would keep the action quiet.
Professor Spellbinder

Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry

http://www.magicnook.com

Publisher of The Wizards' Journals
Thomas Wayne
View Profile
Inner circle
Alaska
2240 Posts

Profile of Thomas Wayne
Quote:
On 2009-01-05 05:14, Spellbinder wrote:
[...] Lining the back space with felt would keep the action quiet.


Also, if the back compartment is very narrow at the bottom (front to back dimension) it will allow the loose pieces to sort of "jam" in place at (or near) the bottom of the well, thereby making them less likely to move around freely. The rattling you intend to do would help them settle into place, and as they do they should become less and less noisy. If you change your rattling motions such that you are primarily moving from side to side they should stop making any noise at all. In this particular case gravity is your friend.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
MagicMatthews
View Profile
Regular user
Sydney, Australia
166 Posts

Profile of MagicMatthews
I like the box made out of Legos. I agree with Spellbinder that the busy pattern makes it deceptive. I think kids would love this prop. It also looks very innocent, since kids are familiar with Lego.
Don't get even... Get odd!
ClintonMagus
View Profile
Inner circle
Southwestern Southeast
3999 Posts

Profile of ClintonMagus
I know this is an old thread, but I just found it.

Something that many of today's prop manufacturers (Chance Wolf, etc.) seem to be doing is to ensure that few or none of the walls of their creations are parallel. This not only contributes a whimsical character to the prop, but it probably also confuses the eye.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
sleightly
View Profile
Elite user
New Hampshire
500 Posts

Profile of sleightly
Also late coming to this thread, but I might recommend scanning in the sides of the Lego Box. You can now print them as color prints/labels/decals and apply them to wood, making it much quicker (and more economical to produce).

I think the sound element could be very effective if shaken near a microphone... Did the shims ever work (that's how I would go)...

I love the idea and look forward to hearing how it all turned out...

ajp
Cyberqat
View Profile
Inner circle
You can tell I work on the net from my
2210 Posts

Profile of Cyberqat
So this has been brought up in a few different ways in this thread, but film-makers all the time use a concept called "forced perspective". This is what your narrowing lines do. A more sophisticated (but maybe unnecessary in this case) version is to make the sides, top and bottom slant "inward" slightly and have a smaller sized back then front. Basically, think a frustrum of a 4 sided pyramid, turned on its side.

What you are doing with false-perspective is mimicking the way things seems to diminish in "size" as they get further away. By forcing extra diminishment, you make it seem further away.

This is used a good deal at theme parks. Take a good look at Disney Main-street USA. The second stories are scaled down some. The third stories even more.

A *terrific* forced perspective model can be seen at the end of the Malestrom ride in the Epcot Norway pavilion. The oil drilling platform is a tiny model of a real drilling platform, but they control the angles of view and have forced the perspective so much that when you go "down and under" it, it seems truly massive.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Quote:
On 2010-08-30 15:48, Cyberqat wrote:
So this has been brought up in a few different ways in this thread, but film-makers all the time use a concept called "forced perspective". This is what your narrowing lines do. A more sophisticated (but maybe unnecessary in this case) version is to make the sides, top and bottom slant "inward" slightly and have a smaller sized back then front. Basically, think a frustrum of a 4 sided pyramid, turned on its side.

What you are doing with false-perspective is mimicking the way things seems to diminish in "size" as they get further away. By forcing extra diminishment, you make it seem further away.

This is used a good deal at theme parks. Take a good look at Disney Main-street USA. The second stories are scaled down some. The third stories even more.

A *terrific* forced perspective model can be seen at the end of the Malestrom ride in the Epcot Norway pavilion. The oil drilling platform is a tiny model of a real drilling platform, but they control the angles of view and have forced the perspective so much that when you go "down and under" it, it seems truly massive.


Model railroaders sometimes use this technique on large layouts. Foreground structure in say, HO scale would be backed by N scale structures that then appear to be further in the distance.

This same idea can be achieved on a magic prop if there is a pattern to the interior. If the open doors have a pattern at one scale, design the back wall to have the same pattern scaled to a lesser percentage. A similar idea is often used when an object and a shell are to be used, so the "occupied space" of a design remains relative on both objects. This same idea should be used on multiplying bottles, but generally is not in the interest of economy. Details.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
The Magic Ref
View Profile
Loyal user
Flint, Mi.
284 Posts

Profile of The Magic Ref
I just ran across this thread again. Sleightly, thanks for the thought of scaning the lego box and making a decal, that is a good idea. I haven't done much with this because I have come up with so many other things to try. I need to dig this out and finish it. I'm putting together a new show, I should incorporate it in it.

P.S. I have a new product I'm releasing, it's called the Twister Wand. I can't wait to finish it up and get it on the market. Do any of you guys do kid shows and want to be a beta tester for me and tell me what you think of it? I need someone who will use it in a show and give me an honest assesment. If it's good, tell me, if it bite's I need to know that also. If your interested I'm me and I'll send you one.

Mike
Be Young...Have Fun!
Zazz
View Profile
Veteran user
California
315 Posts

Profile of Zazz
The Magic Ref,

The link below shows the dollhouse illusion I made from the Dennis Loomis plans. The third picture shows some of the techniques mentioned above.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5223781

Dan
Cyberqat
View Profile
Inner circle
You can tell I work on the net from my
2210 Posts

Profile of Cyberqat
Quote:
On 2010-09-07 16:29, Zazz wrote:
The Magic Ref,

The link below shows the dollhouse illusion I made from the Dennis Loomis plans. The third picture shows some of the techniques mentioned above.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5223781

Dan


Lovely work Dan Smile
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Boudje
View Profile
New user
France
89 Posts

Profile of Boudje
Quote:
On 2010-09-07 16:29, Zazz wrote:
The Magic Ref,

The link below shows the dollhouse illusion I made from the Dennis Loomis plans. The third picture shows some of the techniques mentioned above.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5223781

Dan

Nicely done.
Don't know if the illusion is as visual from the face?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Making a box look deceptive? (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.21 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL