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hashtagmagic Regular user 140 Posts |
There is definitely a problem with overprescription, but I think it's misguided to say that those drugs are never useful. This way of thinking can be dangerous. I hope you don't take this approach with people suffering from conditions like bpd or schizophrenia.
To be fair, I don't think he's lying or misrepresenting his client. If what he is doing is helpful to some people, then its silly to say that those clients are wrong for feeling better. A lot of what clinicians depend on is a good relationship with their clients. That's why it's possible for freudian-based talk therapy to get results. I'm sure NLP can too for the same reasons. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Is that all you have left to try and attack me with Ian? Really is that it? No comments about how I fooled this poor guy with snake oil and a placebo? A large percentage of those that start taking medication for depression or anxiety end up on it for years. And it doesn't solve the problem. Ive lost count of the number of people Ive spoken to who have been in counseling for years backed up with medication and still have the problem. In fact counseling helps to embed and make the problem worse. So its a pretty good guess he would be broke by now as he was just a couple of months away from going out of business which would have made his situation worse etc etc...
I once had a friend call me concerned about being put on high blood pressure medication for life. All I did was make her a simple hypnosis healing mp3 nothing fancy or complicated. She listened to for three weeks before seeing the doctor. After he examined her her blood pressure had improved. 8 years later shes still not on medication for high blood pressure. This is more common than you think. Its no wonder "science" won't find favour in these types of therapies because if they did they would lose billions of pounds/ dollars in pharmaceutical sales. Back to the original post "are we fooling ourselves with NLP" answer is yes because you really don't have a clue what it really is or how it works.....the real fooling is that you believe you know enough from reading a book. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I don't work with schizophrenia or any of those "serious illnesses" in fact I don't really work with anyone these days. I make my money from internet marketing. Mostly passive. A lot easier much less stress. Occasionally someone will track me down and pester me for ages before I will work with them. And I only ever work with people who I know I can help. I have ways of testing them I can tell within 10-20 mins talking to them.
Having a theraputic relationship or whatever you call it is about understanding how the client thinks and being one step ahead in order to remove whatever is holding them back. Techniques that you find in NLP work when you know how to use them. You wouldn't pick up a hammer thump it on a table a few times and say "this doesn't work it never built a house".. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Also note in the video he was able to transform the relationships with his clients using the techniques and skills I taught him... so much so that his business is now doing ok. Real persuasion not fake pretend...
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm not attacking you, I just strongly disagree with you...if you feel I have attacked you personally, I apologise...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Also, I was half way through the four year course towards becoming a therapist before my mum got seriously ill about eight or so years ago, so couldn't afford to continue due to financial commitments I wanted to make for my parents...
I've asked to be banned
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
What is there to disagree with? Unless you suffer from a "polar response".
To shout snake oil about something you don't know anything about is a bit aggressive. So are you telling me removing anxiety depression gaining 200k worth of business and improving a personal relationship is snake oil? Or helping someone to avoid being forced onto high blood pressure medication for life is snake oil? If there is any snake oil to be had its from the medical profession. My point is NLP techniques without a doubt do work in the right hands like any other tools they need a craftsman behind them to get the best results. The other point I would like to make is just because something is wrapped in science doesn't mean it hasn't been skewed or manipulated to make money. Pharmaceutical industry is guilty of this. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'll be completely open and honest with you here, I think you sound angry and also a little wounded ...and you are very protective of what you believe in...i say this because these are the only kinds of threads you respond to these days...i accept that this is how you see things, however I personally think what you are saying is somewhat dangerous...
and to say you can cure most if not all of depression in a couple of sessions, I find very alarming... i think you did very well with that guy who made all that money - I hope you make at least three times as much yourself using the same techniques... i agree that too many pills are prescribed for too long - but I also think that they can help manage certain things very well indeed and save lives... so, you have made certain quite big claims here - so I have asked why you haven't taken it further or made more of a contribution with it all - you've not really answered that, and that's your choice... for me, I would want far more evidence, bigger and wider research and repeated test cases... if you choose to not consider other possibilities (other than your skills) that contributed to this single case - then that's up to you too...
I've asked to be banned
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
One more time. We live in an uncertain world. Nothing is known for certain. Anything is possible. Given these facts, science provides a way to develop and test solutions. Science is not perfect; it functions in an uncertain world and it is the product of human efforts.
Medicine, psychology and psychiatry are all the products of scientific research by definition. The research us done in a manner that meets society's requirements for established science. Of course there are individuals and groups who operate at the edge and perhaps outside the established bounds. One should not however make the sweeping statement that all such practitioners are good or bad for the simple reason that no one knows that with certainty. Because, once again, we have no contact with what is really true about the universe. NLP certainly has a checkered past. But I would be careful to condemn all practitioners. It may well be that some aspects of NLP are actually useful and practical. I am always concerned that self-styled critics are far too quick to judge given how little we all actually know. John
John
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts |
Sorry, science means it can produce repeatable results in controlled conditions. Psychotherapy cannot.
I also have friends that have degrees in Metaphysics. So that must be real too. James Quote: [/quote] [/quote]On Oct 10, 2015, E.E. wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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Medifro Inner circle Miami 1258 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 16, 2015, Xiqual wrote: Psychotherapy is a practice that is, just like medicine, evidence based. Repeated results are gained particularly for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy ( CBT ), since its techniques makes research methodology much easier to implement. This alone made it that much commonly practiced as because researching its effects is easy, it has the most published body of evidence supporting it. Some schools such as psychoanalysis are less evidence based due to its nature, implementing classical methods of research is very difficult. Many innovative research and assessment methods are used though it can't be compared to the ease of CBT. The scientific discipline within Psychology that provides the understanding of disorders by which psychotheraputic techniques can be designed to "counter", is called Abnormal Psychology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_psychology |
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
Each of these disciplines produces and relies on repeatable research experiments. That research forms the basis of the clinical practices or related applied work. Please do not confuse the two.
John
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
Having been on this planet for a half-century now, all I can say is that in my personal experiences, I've known far too many people who had a diagnosis of clinical depression, made the choice to stop taking their prescribed medication, and then commit suicide shortly thereafter.
Perhaps medication is only marginally better than a placebo (as a recent meta-analysis study suggests), but regardless, every little bit helps when we're talking about human lives.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Nobody should come off prescribed drugs without their Doctor helping them. Some antidepressants actually cause suicidal thoughts and behaviour coming off them without addressing the problem won't help. I have helped dozens of people come off them after working with them and through the supervision of their doctor. They have been proven clinically to have no more affect than placebo. With the right therapy they remove the problem before coming off them. They simply don't need them and they start a programme with their doctor that lasts 6-8 weeks normally. I have at least worked with one person who rapidly got worse after taking the advice of his doctor and was contemplating suicide. 6 weeks later he was off medication back at work in a job he was going to leave and went on to finish his business masters degree later that year. I can only speak for those I have worked with I don't know enough about anyone who I have not met. There are also some people I wouldn't work with.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
This is a funny but revealing video and I'm sure all those drugs are based on "Science".. But because something is "wrapped" in science doesn't mean its the best choice. Or that facts haven't been manipulated to push an agenda...
Just because NLP isn't backed by Science doesn't mean the skills and techniques don't work. It means they haven't figured out how to make billions of dollars from it. Check out this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I |
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 20, 2015, mindpunisher wrote: I live in constant terror that I will be trampled to death by a rogue elephant. Because of this fear, I have installed a special "elephant repelling wind chime" on the porch of my house. It's not backed by science either, but obviously it works. I have yet to spot an elephant in my neighborhood.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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truman Special user 635 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 20, 2015, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote: There's a very similar model called the "wind chimes that summon invisible rogue elephants." Are you sure you installed the right one? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I learned many of the techniques embodied in original NLP before it became popular.
Ffter my studies were interupted by a military stint during Viet Nam, I got the Bandler and Grinder books. I found nothing "new" or of value to my uses of non-verbal communication. Maybe something has evolved since but posts here indicate not. Yes, terminolgy has chaged to give the appearance "something new" as psychologists apparently didn't like to study speech communication. Over the years I have dealt with PTSD, depression, etc just like every other adult in our mangled culture. The greatest use of these "techniques" has been detection when a "professional" like a psychologist is feeding me a line of crap. This is especially true in the VA system, unfortunately, in which giving a dose of the latest "approved" jargon replaces reasoned discussion. With a little practice of such techniques (under any name)can allow you to know when the "scientific fact" drivels into "what they want you to hear," etc. I bring this up because dealing with such professionals face-to-face may be one of the few opportunites as opposed to cellphone or Internet deflection. Those people who develop very few interpersonal skills will be unprepared to detect the non-verbal nuances. So, I wonder how much of the study of NLP type techniques by psychologists is for them to learn better masking methods for their "practice." Not saying that all professionals are spin doctors, just that the techniques can work both ways.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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hashtagmagic Regular user 140 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 14, 2015, Medifro wrote: Let me add to the list. I've read about problems with creating hypnosis-related experiments. I've wondered if this might also be the case for some NLP ideas. I'm specifically thinking about the eye movement stuff. I know Wiseman explored this and didn't find anything to support it. However, researchers are still curious as to why these beliefs are so widespread. I wonder if it's not necesarrily complete bs. What if these techniques only worked for certain individuals (maybe highly impressionable/susceptible?). Experienced mentalists who are already trying to pick "good" participants might tend to choose these sorts of people. That could explain why so many strongly support this idea. I base this off of personal experience. When I got into muscle reading, I also was testing out some of the eye-movement stuff on people. I had the best results (with both) with a close friend of mine who (I believe) fits into the highly impressionable/susceptible category. This, of course, could have merely been a coincidence. |
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erikdobell Regular user Gatlinburg Tennessee 139 Posts |
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On Jan 5, 2009, NJJ wrote: So far as I can tell the NLP stuff is crank. The guy that came up with all the stuff is quite shady; which doesn't mean it's fake but it sure doesn't help. The explanations of why it works aren't consistent and don't make sense anyways. And in my experience, the results are iffy. I don't think it's much different from Ouija Boards, Tarot Cards and other forms of self deception. Except it doesn't have the built in fun of spookiness. |
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