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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>Ah, well, then, by MY criteria, your pointless question was posted mainly to boost your own ego by setting yourself up as being more insightful than those whom you presume to look down upon.<<<<
I see ken you avoid the question? |
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ThomasBerger Special user 593 Posts |
And look at TV doctors that are given honourary doctorates--
Cialdini mentions it...I think Alan Alda was one. People are overconfident in their own jobs too. When given MORE information, they feel MORE confident, even tho the accuracy does not change! This is all people everywhere. It is a well known bias. And look at economists-- they are unable to predict anything, yet believe they can. As Taleb says, economic forecasts are for" entertainment purposes only" Tom |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>You should check out the martial arts world sometime.<<<
In my youth I was scottish Karate champion a number of times and trained for over 10 years. My experience was that the only thing they obsessed about being was better at Karate. There was no false beliefs about ability. Everybody knew who was the best and knew their place. Sparring took care of that. But it was always about the sport and nothing else. |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-08 17:52, mindpunisher wrote: Now THERE'S an ironic observation.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>No, it's a basic requirement of argumentation. If YOU claim something to be true (or imply it strongly), you will be hard-pressed to convince without offering proof to back the statement.<<<<
First thing. Im not arguing I asked a few questions. Secondly I have no wish to convince anyone. It seems that the mindset on here cannot stray from the limited patterns they run over and over. The word proof is used over and over as a cheap out when they having nothing interesting left to to say. I have no intention of convincing anyone of anything. Its this one-upman-ship need that keeps so many stuck. And I have never stated people who perform have big ego's I asked a series of questions. But Ill be clear where I stand on the answers to a few of them. I believe that mentalism gives a fast track for many to a sense of importance and status that's based upon amazing a few laypeople with effects. They get attention and position "credibilty" they don't really have. Its fake. They aren't experts of the mind. They don't have the skills they pretend to have. But this newfound attention is toxic to some. They then believe they are qualified to make judgements in areas that take many years of hard study and application to understand. Some actually believe they have the abilities they fake with simple methods. I have quite a wide experience of working in different areas.Some are highly egotistical. Advertising for example. but even they contain their meglomania to Advertising an not the subjects they advertise. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-08 18:15, Steve_Mollett wrote: If I give my opinion about something its because I actually know something about it. And have a solid track record to back it up. I don't read a couple of books on mentalism and believe I am an expert in NLP and therefore can say with authority its crap. I don't take the stance that because I know a few slights and presentations that I am now qualified to save the world from evil psychics. If I have no experience in an area that interests me I seek out those that know and I learn from them.. If I have no interest I SHUT UP! |
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
I'll respect that is your experience, MP, but it is far, far from mine.
In my experience, which is related to my educational background (B.S. in Neurobiology, Physiology and Behavior with minor in philosophy, MBA- Technology Management), advertising people feel they have strong grasps of economics, politics, and sociology. They don't. The closest they come is some basic ideas in sociology. I have experience in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Cassio Werner's school when it was in Sac. in the 1990's) so I will also disagree about the martial arts aspect. In every competition I attended (I really wasn't that good, so I usually just watched), there was a theme to every competition: the person who got second (and fourth, losing to third) always had some excuse. If the ref had done this, I would have won, if he hadn't cheated, I would have won, etc. This is the exact opposite of what you claim to have experienced so I think that either 1.) this will remind you of those people or 2.) Americans & Brazilians are utterly different than Scots. I ran cross-country in high school. I was decent, even won a few races. There was a 2-mile race at church camp my senior year. I won. Second place person said, and I quote: "I could have won if I knew the course better." Keep in mind none of us knew it. My response was simple: "I hear a lot of people who don't win say that." Ok, so I offered counter-examples to yours. Ones that I think you will have to agree with now that you think about it. Now, do you still stand by "There was no false beliefs about ability. Everybody knew who was the best and knew their place."? Oh, and back to Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, they were all experts in boxing and wrestling and any of that, in their minds at least. I truly believe you have a preconception that magic/mentalism is one way and the rest of the world in another. I believe this preconception is making you think that the examples you gave were valid and didn't miss anything. I also believe that reading my examples is going to make you think of examples from your own life, which you will want to dismiss as exceptions. They aren't. You are, IN MY UNTRAINED OPINION, suffering from grass is greener syndrome and I know from experience it's very hard to get through to people with that mindset. Hopefully my examples did just that, I think they will, I really do. In any case, like I said, I respect your experience but there is nothing in my entire life that makes me believe that is how the whole world works. Statistically, it's possible you have only ever dealt with the best people, in each field, with no egos, but, honestly, I'd bet on grass is greener syndrome. Hopefully nobody takes my post the wrong way but if they do, screw'em. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>In my experience, which is related to my educational background (B.S. in Neurobiology, Physiology and Behavior with minor in philosophy, MBA- Technology Management), advertising people feel they have strong grasps of economics, politics, and sociology. They don't. The closest they come is some basic ideas in sociology. <<<<
Your making comments on the Advertising industry with no real background in it. (another example of what I am pointing out on here)Your Degree is not in Advertising. Even if it was it wouldn't count. You see working in the indusrty is miles away from being in higher education in fact light years away. Advertising is basically split into two camps. One direct response which deals with finding hot buttons targeting markets and getting results. This option is only concerned with accountable results. If a campaign bombs it bombs. These guys are experts at getting groups of people to respond. If they don't then they are out of a job. Survival simple as that. The second option is Brand development and creative advertising/design. This option are not accountable or as "scientific" as the first. They create arty farty pieces of "art" and just throw in the product at the end. They are more concerned about winning awards than selling products. They both see themselves as experts in advertising selling products. And depending on what resulkts your after they both are. As added thought - these guys do for real what many mentalists try to simulate. THEY MOVE AND INFLUENCE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT THEM TO DO BY SHAPING THEIR PERCEPTIONS. In fact Advertising is responsable for shaping many of modern societie's values. That is no theory its fact. Its the same with martial arts. There are people who are good at winning competitions. They know how to work that criteria. But put them in a situation where its just pure sparring without competition rules and they will get taken apart by a good solid fighter. PLUS JUST BECAUSE I OR ANYONE ELSE COULD BE CONSIDERED AN EXPERT IN KARATE - WE ALL KNEW WE WERE RAW BEGINNERS IN JUDO OR AKIDO OR ANY OTHER MARTIAL ART. MAGICIANS LEARN A FEW TRICKS AND SUDDENLY THEY ARE MASTERS OF MANY DISCIPLINES. It makes no difference who squeels what the result always tells who is the better. Just like in a court of law if your guilty your guilty. Prisons are full of "innocent" people. The grass isn't greener. But the Café definately is. The difference is I actually go to the other fields taste the grass before I make comments. For example I wouldn't even attempt to comment on any of the subjects you have studied in your degree because I have no real experience to draw from. It would be a better place in here if everyone lived by that rule. Perhaps we would learn more from each other. Lem its not that my experience differs from yours its the observation of whats really going on. Like I said I never make comments on anything I don't really know about. I think that's good philosophy to live. Ive lived it out in life a long time and its served me really well. Perhaps more on here would have more valuable experiences and be able to contribute more if they could cure themselves of the toxic headiness of fooling a few laypeople. Ive learned from both good and bad "experts". Ive tested wrestled with principles and created results. Some spectacular. However I still don't see myself as got anywhere near where I want to be. I am constantly updating my knowledge and skills and testing them out in the real world. |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-08 18:17, mindpunisher wrote: I think I see what you're trying to say. It's important to keep in mind, however, that mentalism, like any facet of 'magic,' is an application of the art of ILLUSION. One doesn't have to be an actual 'master of the mind' (Is there such a thing? Psychology is still in its infancy, with various schools of thought.)in order to create the ILLUSION of being a 'mind master.' What's important is the ILLUSION left with the public, rather than the facts. If a performer thinks he REALLY IS a 'master of the mind,' it is an egocentric failing in the individual performer rather than the art, no better or worse than the egocentric performer who truly believes he is the 'world's greatest magician' or whatever. If THAT'S what you're getting at, then I agree that a great many performers suffer from this syndrome. I might even suggest that the 'world's greatest escape artist' syndrome is even more prevalent and contentious than the 'master of the mind' syndrome. In all cases, I see this as a syndrome affecting individual performers rather than a mass malady affecting everyone in the field.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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ted french Inner circle Columbus Ohio 1946 Posts |
Ken the Klown's post was very smart and summed up what is wrong with this forum. Especially the pennies section. Well done KK.
P3
practice practice perform. |
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Bertrand Thornley Loyal user Tampa, FL 278 Posts |
I'm reminded of a quote from Max Maven. He said something along the lines of- most magicians get into magic(or eventually mentalism) very young as a way of compensating for some insecurity or feeling of lack. I don't remember if he said this last part or its just me, but I'm not convinced most grow out it. Yes, I said that on a magic forum and many proud magimentalists will desire with great ire to swat me about the head and nose with a jumbo heavy stock billet, using their most vicious-- yet deceptive-- paddle move.
oh well
"Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business." Tom Robbins
Personal Revelation: I'm not a hippopotamus |
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Ken The Klown Regular user 187 Posts |
MP wrote>>>>Do a large number of magicians / mentalists come from a place where they actually believe they have more ability and expertise than they actually have?
Should classic text books on the subject carry a warning that studying these subjects could lead to a serious stunt in personal growth and ability to learn? Can learning mentalism or magic be damaging? Or could it just be an inadequate way to compensate an already well established inferiority complex - by replacing it with self delusion? Would socially inept newbies be better of seeking therapy rather than 13 steps? After all 13 is an unlucky number. It seems it might be to high a climb for some. The altitude will make their heads spin.. >>> MP later wrote>>>For example I wouldn't even attempt to comment on any of the subjects you have studied in your degree because I have no real experience to draw from. It would be a better place in here if everyone lived by that rule. Perhaps we would learn more from each other.>>>> Unless you have advanced degrees in psychology, MP, your second statement above contradicts your questions above that. I'd be interested to know your qualifications to determine another person's "inferiority complex", whether or not others need "therapy", and whether someone's "growth" is "stunted." The answer to your questions, therefore, is "PTHHHHWWWTT!" |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I have run a professional therapy practice for more than 10 years. I have created successful programmes for drug and alchol abusers funded by the government. I am currently working with law enforcement agencies to create programmes to influence the public to give information about drug dealers...I have created sales records for prestige car dealers....I have sold out 1000 seater theatres for nearly three years...
When I was selling out the theatre with hypnosis shows there were a number of university degree graduates selling popcorn. They hated me. I made more in two hours than they made in two months. |
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LLL Inner circle 1574 Posts |
MindPunisher: Where can I catch your show?
Andy
The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
The market died out for hypnosis shows in scotland and the UK so I stopped doing them a while back.
I also stopped doing mentalism in trainings and seminars last year. I now run marketing/business development programmes where clients sign up to a years coaching. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>I'd be interested to know your qualifications to determine another person's "inferiority complex", whether or not others need "therapy", and whether someone's "growth" is "stunted." <<<<<<
You do not need a phd in anything to spot someone with an inferiority complex. Just as you don't need a medical qualification to spot someone with a missing limb. Its pretty obvious when a person who believes they are qualified to judge something based on reading a few books on a totally different subject will be stunted when it comes to personal growth. To learn anything worthwhile you need an open mind. You need to find people who have achieved RESULTS in the field you want to learn about. You need to listen to them sometimes pay them money for the privlidge. You then have to wrestle with what you've been taught until it becomes part of you. You then have make it work in the real world. Once you've done that YOUR QUALIFIED. Some of the top marketing people in the world don't have a degree but are multimillionaires. While those with phds earn peanuts teaching academic crap in universities. I have two University degrees. One in Graphic Design one in Multimedia and Network computing. I wouldn't advise anyone in either topics since I have no real world experience. I know what makes good graphic design and I have grounding on the technica side of computing. But a degree does not make you an expert. On the other subjects above I have real world experience and results. Because I seek out and learn from those already doing it. I am therefore better qualified in those areas than I am with my degrees. |
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