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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
I only saw Kreskin years ago on television. At that time he purported to be a real psychic.
I fall into the camp that believes that it is important for ALL the spectators to know mentalism is an act. If someone represents themself as really having psychic power, then they are teaching people a falsehood about the nature of human existence. The mentalist knows he is a fake. By representing otherwise, he is causing false beliefs in some of the naive spectators. This can even have bad consequences for the spectators. Magic is an illusion. I am not saying that everything a performer says has to be literally true. Acting is part of performing. But if people leave a show and think, "Gee, I never realized there really IS a spirit world, and people can interact with it" OR "Gee, some people really CAN read minds", then there can be profound consequences. This is NOT the same as religious beliefs. If they believe in a creator, then their belief is debatable. That is one thing. But if they believe in the mentalist, then it’s obvious even to the mentalist that they are being misled. I wonder what other people think?
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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MisterE21 Elite user Salt Lake City, UT 426 Posts |
I know this has been discussed previously here at the Café, and it seems the debaters fall into three camps:
1. Those who believe the audience should not be led astray regarding mentalism; 2. Those who allow the audience to be led astray by mentalism; and 3. Those who don't give a bloody *#@) if the audience is led astray. I suppose I fall, ironically, somewhere between 1 and 3 without landing on two. LOL. As I posted in the now-defunct thread "Ethics of Exsposure," I in no way accept responsibility for the audiences behavior and thoughts. I present mentalism as entertainment and, if they want to carry it further, that is up to them. I do strongly disagree with the statement that "...if they beleive in the mentalist, then it's obvious even to the mentalist that they are being misled." I can feel the flames coming but, hey, I'm a bit chilly. Given that is impossible to prove a negative, it will never be proved that psychic phenomena does not and will not exist. Therefore, I disagree with automatically accepting that all believers in such things are fools. I know many people who believe strongly in them and I do not feel they are fools; in opposition, I know many fools who do not believe in psychic phenomena. So, neither equation works for me. Just as many people need to believe in religion for warmth and fuzzy feelings, many people need to believe in psychic phenomena. If that's what they want to beleive, more power to them. Some people are cat people, some people are dog people...it's all a preference. Randi responds, in his "Flim Flam" book, to the argument I'm sort of making: "It's not hurting anyone." As long as I do not ask for donations or claim to be able to implant them directly from their chair to the "other side," as long as I don't tell them to sell their furniture, divorce their spouse and move to Bornio to drink funny Kool-Aid, then I don't feel that the audience believing in my psychich abilities hurts anyone. If that leads them to a charlatan who does the above things, it is no longer my responsibility. I do not sue the car lot who sold a person a car, even when they used that car to run me over in the parking lot because they didn't know how to properly drive a stick. The driver had a responsibility there; while the car lot, perhaps, could have NOTICED he couldn't drive a stick, that doesn't mean they were obligated to protect ME from HIM by not selling him the car. Bit a convoluted analogy, and I apologize...hopefully I made a bit of sense. Or, maybe, even 2 bits...lol...
Your EFFECT is only as good as its AFFECT.
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John Fitzgerald Loyal user London, England. 215 Posts |
There are those who no matter what you tell them will believe you have real psycic powers ("The Rowland Syndrome").
John. |
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chrismatt Special user Why would you read any of my 978 Posts |
A magician is neither a fraud nor a fool because there is at least an implicit understanding that he is tricking his audience with nonsupernatural methods. A mentalist or psychic who lets his audience leave his performance with the impression they have truly witnessed supernatural phenomena is both perpetrating a fraud and acting foolish. In the name of "entertainment" and "mystery" (really money and fame), he is lying to the public and fostering and propagating superstition. This kind of presentation is akin to the psychotic actor who believes he is actually Hamlet. That is why Uri Geller (then) and Jonathan Edward (now) are such laughing stocks. Although Kreskin garners snickers, he is clever enough not to stray very often over the line into fraud and foolishness.
Details make perfection, but perfection is no detail.
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MisterE21 Elite user Salt Lake City, UT 426 Posts |
Who, exactly, are the people making Jonathon Edward a laughing stock? If you mean magician brethren, then I'll concede that. However, among the shut-eye public, the man is widely considered a legitimate miracle worker.
While I will concede that a mentalist who is knowingly engaging in cold-reading/b***et switching/etc is "perpetrating a fraud," I fail to see how they are acting foolish. They are, realistically, fulfilling a need and/or desire put forth by the public. As has been repeated in numerous places: one will never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the general public. As long as the desire to believe in "something" exists, so will exist the people who provide that "something" to believe. The public is the victim of fraud, misinformation and deceit constantly (politicians, corporations, other supernatual instituations); true, there are always people railing against these things, but they continue to exist regardless. I stand by my belief that, despite what we believe about these people, they are providing a benefit to a certain segment of society. I further stand by my belief that it is not our job, as magicians, as human beings, as anything, to attempt to protect the public from these people. It is every single human beings responsibility to research an organization or person prior to any sort of payment and, consequently, to protect themselves and not look to anyone else to do it for them...
Your EFFECT is only as good as its AFFECT.
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E-Leoni Veteran user USA 358 Posts |
About a month ago, Kreskin did a show for
a private company . The show was in Seattle. I got to see the show on tape. I got to talk to a large majority of the people that saw him. A few points I got from the lay audience. and one or two profesionals that hired him. 1) He was insulting, and they didn't appreciate it. 2) He was a Caricature, clown like. 3) He kept begging for applause, when he didn't deserve it. 4) Kreskin would get upset if you didn't sustain the applause long enough. 5) He did card tricks!(in a bad tone) 6) He was lame. 7) He ran over his time in all three sets. He didn't keep to the Schedule, like he said he would. 8) He was a joke. 9) Why did he talk about himself so much. 10) Who is he ? 11) He loves to brag doesn't he ? THis show was for a major Corporation, the audience age ranged from 20's to 50's . I got to see the show, on tape, and although I grew up watching Kreskin as a kid in Toronto, and admiring what he's done. In my oppinion there is no need, absolutly no need to make the audience feel like their idiots, or inferior to the performer. It may have worked in Dunningers time, I don't know,but not now. It was Embarrassing to watch.Sometimes enjoyable, but corny. I thought he learned his lesson,.. to be a bit more humble after getting raped by Howard Stern on one of his appearances but I guess he didn't. YOU can say , "Well he's making the big bucks, and he's doing the shows.., and your not".. but is it worth making your last appearances as a joke, & Condescending ***. I seriously doubt they'll get him again. Again those comments where from some people that saw him, not from me. If anyone here thinks comments like that don't matter, from a lay audience, I suggest you reread the Fitzkee Trilogy. E-Leoni. |
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David_Libertine Regular user Lake Charles, LA 142 Posts |
E-Leoni;
Thanks for the review... As I said when this whole thread was started, I knew I would be flamed for my opinion of the show but with a few differences you could have been watching the same show I saw. I loved Kreskin in his heyday and really was looking forward to seeing him live. He is one of the performers that inspired my love of mentalism. Unfortunately, like Bob Hope and other "elderly" entertainers, it may be time to consider retirement. The times seem to have moved on and left some of the greats in the past. Yes, it's just my opinion... but I know what I saw with my own eyes.
Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth? Boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. |
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kuffs Special user 791 Posts |
Thanks you guys, I now understand your points...
Maybe now, the charactor will top the real man...It's become a parody of himself without realising it. Humbly Kuffs |
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Stuart Cumberland Loyal user 289 Posts |
Admittedly, I'm fairly new to this board. I've read quite a bit. A few things strike ME as funny.
1. I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly things go off topic. Kreskin was on Bullard is now: Kreskin is old, sucks, no he doesn't, yes he does, he should retire, does too many card tricks, I liked him, I disagree with X, hey... you shouldn't critique someones opinion, blah, blah, blah. (This amuses me greatly, so I'm NOT complaining). 2. To be completely politically correct, it is best to not say anything at all. "Danger! Danger! Don't post critical comments, otherwise you might get flamed or deleted". Come on folks. If everyone agreed with everything I said, for example, this would be a mighty boring world. Shocking as this may seem, I've actually had my opinions *completely changed* by listening to someone elses *opposing* view. For me, IMHO, I'd like to be able to write off the cuff, without having my Lawyer, Psychiatrist and English advisors have to look at all the ways my posts MIGHT offend or be taken out of context. Personally, I tend to realize that there are people out there who will get bent-out-of-shape about anything that is written. I don't worry about them. I assume a lot. I assume conversation is friendly if someone says 'hey, Blair, I disagree with you'. No problem! Of course I assume they are flaming me and hostile when they say, "Hey,you mindless idiot".... I can safely say, with these admittedly simplistic assumptions, my life is simpler and more enjoyable. Some of you saw Kreskin and didn't like him. Fine. I saw him several times sitting in audiences that adored him. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who cares. One thing is for sure. Kreskin doesn't. Cheers. Blair Robertson FREE Newsletter reveals inside money-making secrets of successful mentalists & psychics! www.Mental-List.com |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
MisterE21,
No flames, you make a good point. Quote:
I do strongly disagree with the statement that "...if they beleive in the mentalist, then it's obvious even to the mentalist that they are being misled." I can feel the flames coming but, hey, I'm a bit chilly. I was editing the initial post even as you extracted my misspelled text! This message board moves fast! I can agree with your comment. I'll admit the possibility of real psychics existing, even though I have never seen any evidence of it. I do doubt that they exist. But if a psychic is for real, then of course they should be able to state that. But if they state they are real, and they are not, it is certainly fair, and even to be expected, for some people to expose them as fakes. That latter case is what happened to both Kreskin and Uri Geller early in their careers. They were both debunked publicly. In Uri Geller's case, a book was written exposing his tricks (Imaginatively titled, "The Tricks Of Uri Geller". I would have preferred that the tricks were performed by someone who then said they were tricks, rather than having the secrets revealed.) To clarify my position, I do not think it is bad if a performer says they read minds, when in fact they cannot, that is acting. If a few people believe them, the performer is not responsible. If however the performer repeatedly asserts they have supernatural powers, and they accumulate a following, a following who then believes all psychic phenomena are real based solely on the existence of the performers "powers", then I think it is clear that people are being misled.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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E-Leoni Veteran user USA 358 Posts |
Very good point Blair. I've seen Kreskin on
another show and he did great, Jimmy Kimble, I think it was. Jimmy cut him short even joked about him talking too much about his talking about his past and moved on. He did a book test when they returned from comercial. I wish I was on Jimmy Kimbel (sp?) show...or any other show for that matter. I just talked to some today who enjoyed watching him. Different strokes for ,...well you know the rest. Enrico. |
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