Hi All;
I'm just wondering if I'm the only guy here with a "ghetto cup" mentality...Let me explain:
I've worked ren faires and "period" festivals for a number of years. Early on, I learned that you don't take anything to a faire that you don't wanted to get dirty, wet, damaged, or stolen, because, well, stuff gets dirty, wet, damaged, and stolen. I stumbled upon a set of 3 copper cups in a junk store. From the puke- green hue on the inside, I'm reasonably sure that they're pure copper. I'm 99% sure they're not actually magic props. I think they may be small planters (they did have traces of potting soil in them when I purchased them). Amazingly, however, you can do virtually any C and B move with them- elevator, hide- outs, etc. I have a "nice" set, but truth be told I actually prefer my junk cups. Best 5 bucks I ever spent!
I guess I have 2 questions:
1) Anybody else out there using bargain- basement cups?
2) Does it the cup really matter to the audience?
Just looking for opinions...
Peace,
Mike

I don't think the cup matters one bit to the audience. It is you first, and what happens second.

The trick is about the balls not the cups.

Eddie

The trick works better for me if the cup is heavy enough to bang on without damaging it, and I prefer large cups and balls to allow for a larger audience, but other than these small req's, the cup doesn't really matter.

I've always used PF cups! I like the style...love how the handle, weight, etc. However...I can do C&Bs with ANY cup. It's just a matter of style I think.

My friend Tom Frank of L.A. (formerly Seattle) produced the Phoenix Cups and Balls sets in copper - they were kind of a reproduction of the Charlie Miller type cup. The primary reason Tom had several runs of cups manufactured (and marketed them) was so he could afford to feed his own addiction to beating the holy living crud out of any set he performs with. He literally bangs and beats on the cups until they are no longer recognizable as such - and then he breaks out a new set.

$5 for one of his used sets would be grossly overpriced - except for the memorabilia factor, which is why I would love to have them in my collection.

TW

I just received a set of Gazzo seconds from Gary Animal that I won thru E*bay last week. They may not be the prettiest, but they sure look like tanks and could take a huge beating. I'm hoping that when my skills get up to scratch, I'll be able to dazzle with them and like Pete says it best: I don't think the cup matters one bit to the audience. It is you first, and what happens second.

JoJo

how nasty ARE those cups? Gary painted a pretty grim picture of them on the auction, so I didn't bid. Now you've got me wondering...

The beads are not too pretty, but the bottoms are flat. They don't stack exactly straight up and down, but they stack pretty good otherwise. Not polished, but I don't really care. One saddle is deeper than the other two, but I don't care. I'll give them a good spit and polish and they should come up looking pretty fine. They are built for the long haul and hopefully will do me for a long time. For $20, I'm not going to complain. The shipping and packaging from Gary was first class as well, so all in all I'm stoked.

JoJo

For $20 I would not complain too. But if you split them up for one and two cups routine, it would be useful and a really good buy too.

1) Anybody else out there using bargain- basement cups?

I use bargain basement cups. If by that you mean the era before E-bay were you could get an item from another magician for a decent price then I do use my cheaper cups and not my more expensive Johnson cups. However in this strange backwards world the cups I “inherited” from my magic teacher would go for more (he made me pay $30 for his a set of copper charley miller style cups from Tannen’s back in 1989). I still love my Johnson cups which are in my opinion the best working cup out there. All three sets of my Johnson cups are covered in little dings, as they should be. If you don’t have any dings on your cups your not using them right.

2) Does it the cup really matter to the audience?

The simple answer is yes. As a worker there is always a line you must walk between durability vs. esthetics. Things that are beautiful and dainty tend to only exist well in the amateur world. I think we often forget the esthetics as we use an item and the small changes that take place in a cup over time, as it tarnishes, to us is a progression of use. To an audience it’s an old dingy item. Remember “that guy” in the magic club meeting who comes in with the trunk of old dirty equipment, rope that was once white, everything else is equally covered in the dirt of his hands from the past 30 years. I don’t think any of us wants to be that guy. I’m not saying you must polish, steam or iron before every show but give yourself a time of year you show your equipment to a discerning friend who can tell you if its time for a cleaning. Audiences are always noticing and judging us whether we want them to or not.

Ben

Ben:

Although I do understand what you are saying, I must disagree about things that are beautiful and dainty. Certainly, most of the "road warriors" that I have in the cups and balls museum do have their share of dings, there are some excellent, professional performers who are meticulous about the way they work with their cups. Their style demands it. They treat their props the same way a violinist treats a very valuable instrument, with love and care.

A good performer conveys his feelings about his props to the audience.

Bill:

I have found as a rule rather then an exception the more overly, and I say overly, concerned about the prettiness of a prop the less of a constant worker they are. They are “professional” only in ability and not as a reflection of the proportion of salary they gain from magic and have a full-time job during the week. These people are superb magicians but convey more of an interest in their props, then performing and entertaining the audience (yes, there are always people who are the exception). The workers I know buy multiple of their props specifically for the wear and tear of reasonable use. If your want to make the example a violinist, then if you never break a string then you’re not doing it right.

A good performer conveys a feeling to his audience about how he feels towards them, not about his adult toys. Remember it’s not the cups that are supposed to be magic it’s the magician.

Hey Lion, any chance of a photo of those cups?

I am referring to full-time pro's who earn the bulk of their living at magic. For example, Rafael Benatar takes good care of his cups. I have a set of his cups that he used for a couple of decades that are in excellent shape. Bill Malone is the same way. I have a set of his Paul Fox cups that show a minimum amount of wear and tear.

And when it comes to breaking strings on a violin, tell me the last time you saw a concert violin soloist break a string during a concert. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It's just not something that is an intentional occurrence.

And when I say meticulous, maybe the what I should have said is "not careless."

Before you start taking issue with my use of the word "professional," perhaps you should read some of my other posts about the differences between an amateur and a professional. I was a working, full-time pro for 35+ years, before I was blessed with a situation that permitted me to retire while I was still on top of my game. I put and kept a roof over my hear with magic.

My stage props took their share of hits, but they also received a lot of careful maintenance, because I strongly believe that part of the entertainment appeal of any show is how the props look from the audience. It's part of the stage setting.

The same thing is true of close-up. If you are doing something with a deck of cards and it looks like it just came out of a trash bin, you are detracting from your own performance. If the wallet you pull the card out of looks worn and ragged, it detracts from your performance. If you use a pocketknife during a performance, and the blade is rusty, the audience will pick up on it. They will think you are a bum.

Bill

I do believe we essentially agree. As you have said there are plenty people whose cups show the wear probably due to juggling throws, metal wand taps and steal ball bearings Ammar, Gertner, Williamson, Aldo to mention a few. I’m confident you could add many more people to this list. Performers make a choice if the effect justifies the use. I am equally confident that each of these performers when their cups had seen the extent of public service the prop was retired.

As you know professionals tend to look for quality made items that will stand normal use. Even if that means sometimes not performing with your Barber-head half dollar shell over cement floors.

Beautiful and dainty would be THREE HAND ENGRAVED SOLID STERLING SILVER Sherwood cup vs. a Johnson set. It’s not that Sherwood cups could not take the use but your not going to want to and if your routine included these moves before and now you are omitting them for fear of messing with the patina then your more interested in the props then your audience experience. With the Jonson cups you could essentially perform for a life time with four sets for the price of the Sherwood cups. Paul Gertner never changed his routine after he switched to the more expensive Paul fox cups, he still taps away.

There is also something to be said for the beauty of an item that has seen the test of time. A close friend asked if he could have my old retired set of cups and he wanted to trade me for his new set. His reason was that every ding in my cup gave them character. I guess on a purely nostalgic level I understand where he was coming from but certainly not as current performing prop.

I am in no way qualified to talk about violins. Maybe a better example is my straight jacket which is a very hefty device. Yet after time there are many tears where the buckles meet the fabric and I have had to repair the jacket many times much to the surprise of many people who could not believe in their wildest dream such a thing is possible with this prop. When I discussed this with another working professional, Scott Interrante, he confirmed that this was an issue he has had to deal with. This is a direct result of the calculated real strain one puts on the jacket, coupled with the way real people put you into the jacket.

I have spent more time on this response then I should have. I much rather have had a conversation about this. I’m sure if we were having a verbal conversation this seaming disagreement could have been resolved in a few moments.

Ben

I believe we agree more than we disagree. I just think you made a blanket statement that could not be justified. There are a lot of people, real professionals, who perform with cups like the engraved silver sherwoods. I seldom take mine out of the case, much less out of the house. On the other hand, I would have no problem doing the same thing with my smooth copper ones.

Maybe you should visit the cups and balls museum on line to see the range of stuff I have that belonged to "workers."

Agreed, I don't think I ever said ALL and I try not to make absolutes statements. I spent too many collage semesters in logic courses to fall into that trap. I have not had the opportunity to see your website yet I will try to check it out tonight.

Thanks

Ben

Bill just a curiousity, why did Rafael and Bill Malone give up their cups?

Bill gave two sets of his Paul Fox cups to Hocus Pocus to sell on consignment. I purchased the silver plated set at the second Magic LIVE! event in Vegas. I don't know why he wanted to sell them, but at the time, Paul Fox cups had reached their peak value.

Rafael decided to sell his Paul Fox cups to get a set of silver plated cups. I managed to outbid everyone else.