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IanKendall Special user Edinburgh 571 Posts |
On a slight tangent, Youell said:
BTW-- this is why the DVD's I make I do myself. I don't pay for studio time and I can shoot something as many times as I need to. I feel the result is better for me AND better for the people who purchase my products. I have to concur with Steven on this one; I love that I can go into as much detail as neccessary to get the point across without having one eye on the clock. Our products may have that 'cottage industry' feel (or mine certainly do, anyway) but I've never had much truck with the 'style over content' brigade anyway. We have full control over what is taught, and since we are both passionate about proper teaching, I feel the end result is to the benefit of our customers. Take care, Ian |
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PaulGordon Elite user 475 Posts |
Dear Tobias,
Why the anger? My post (above) is very polite! I'm just curious as to the 15-year time-delay. It seems, possibly, that Darwin might have "missed the boat" as most folks who want the book will already have a copy. Only the die-hard fans will want two copies. Paul Gordon |
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tobias harmann New user North Piddle, UK 91 Posts |
I suppose you could write to him and ask. Let us know how you get on.
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PaulGordon Elite user 475 Posts |
Dear Tobias,
Another magician PM'd me the reply/answer. I now know "why" and it proves that there is more to "it" than meets the eye. (It's not for me to detail it here, btw.) Paul Gordon (Still bemused by your "blast" when I was asking a polite question). |
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 09:52, tobias harmann wrote: Quotes like this are the reason that many performers of Darwin's caliber (and Paul's for that matter) shy away from the Café.
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
@Youell: I was making a joke.
@Jell92, who wrote: Quote:
Steven..., You say that one can't judge Darwin's performing style from his DVDs, but only from a live performance. Well, what the **** should be any different from a live performance and a DVD performance. Zip, nada, zero Actually, this isn't true. When you take someone who performs for live people all the time and put him in front of a camera in a studio with lights and an audience that isn't totally comfortable being there (because they're on camera as well), it's not the same. The timing is different. The rhythm is off. The reactions are not the usual. It's just different. I don't know how many DVDs you own, but the chances are good that I personally know several if not many of the magicians on your shelf. None of them will tell you that the performance was the same as usual. It's artificial. It's contrived, and to anyone sensitive enough to perceive it, it can be perceived. If you have an excellent, and I mean a really excellent director and producer, you can get a pretty close approximation of what an actual performance might be like. Most of the time, though, you get what you get. The advantage to a DVD is as a learning tool, not as a historical record. @PaulGordon: The 15-year time frame you cite is meaningless, since for most of those years, Darwin didn't own the rights to republish a collector's edition of the book. But even if he did, of what significance would be the delay? I can tell you: zip, nada, zero. Someone may issue a collector's edition of a product right away; someone else might wait decades to do it. It's more a matter of impulse, incentive and getting around to it than anything else. |
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PaulGordon Elite user 475 Posts |
To OpenTraveller: Thanks for your reply (which I don't fully agree with)...but, why so angry? My post wasn't angry or flaming! I was/am being civil...
Paul Gordon |
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 04:30, pepka wrote: Excellent observation Pepka. It reminds me of some of the ideas expressed by Henning Nelms, in Magic and Showmanship. One being that a magical performer need not play the part of a magician, and that there are other suitable, and often more interesting roles for the magician to play. For example that of "the expert, or the "cardsharp". (This is echoed in Strong Magic). However, regardless of the role you may be playing, Nelms stresses the importance of possessing real knowledge regarding the subject of your routines, and presentations stating that, "this kind of knowledge cannot be faked"..., and that... "...A study of magic lore can do great deal for any conjurer. It will give him the feel of "real" magic" Feel is difficult to define, but every actor knows that it is just as genuine, and just as important as the boards of the stage on which he walks." Contrast this with a quote from, Darwin Ortiz at the Cardtable, "I have found that if one want's to convey the impression of great skill, it is advantageous to actually possess great skill." Yes, I agree with Pepka-- laymen know when they are in the presence of someone who is "the real deal." Mark M Walsh
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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mackinley New user 76 Posts |
Regardless of whether or not you agree with Darwin's performing style, even on video, you can't deny that his performance has a huge impact on his audience.
Regarding Scams and Fantasies: Are people seriously criticizing him for saying "wow, she was really perspiring" after performing an effect that is themed (tongue in cheek) around having a spectator fated to select the death card? This is no contradiction to what he says in Strong Magic, this is exactly what he argues you should do. Using "throwaway" lines to emphasize the dramatic nature of whatever effect you're performing. The same holds true when he turns to the other spectator and says, "here, can you help me with this while we let Amanda recover from her brush with death." The whole audience laughs, and that line emphasizes how amazing what just happened really was. Do you seriously think he is making fun of her for being a sweaty women who he almost killed? If so, I recommend learning a little bit about humans, and the way they interact with one another. Spend less time reading magic books and watching magic videos, and more time interacting with people. Yes, he insults his audience, but he does it in the way that you would insult your buddy, i.e. after playfully teasing a spectator, he says "Don't worry, we're all here just to have a little fun..., at your expense." It's funny!!! Relax!!! His audience is fine with it, why on earth should magicians on the Magic Café have a problem? This is exactly his character, a cardshark! A little bit cocky (rightfully so), clearly knows more about handling cards than most people, and would absolutely destroy you in a game of poker. Anyone who criticizes Darwin for challenging spectators, and calls him a hypocrite needs to re-read Strong Magic. As Darwin says (you obviously misunderstood this part), the problem does not lie in challenge effects, or in emphasizing the fairness of a situation. The problem lies in a challenging attitude. It's possible to perform the 10 Card poker deal, increasing the amount of money you're risking with each phase, without it coming across as a challenge. It's also possible to perform a sponge ball routine that comes across as a challenge. "I'm so confident here, I'm willing to bet $100. If you win you keep it, if you lose you lose nothing." is not a problem. "You know why you no see, because you no watch" is a problem. (This example is straight out of Strong Magic). Let him have his performing style, and have your own performing style. Do not criticize an incredibly successful performer on his performing style. |
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tobias harmann New user North Piddle, UK 91 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 10:06, cinemagician wrote: cinemagician - why so angry? Quote:
On 2009-01-29 10:48, PaulGordon wrote: OpenTraveller - oh no, you're not being angry as well are you?!!! Paul Gordon - a lot of us here highly rate Darwin Ortiz as a performer and writer. Do you? |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
@Paul: You're projecting.
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john scot Special user brighton, uk 585 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 13:33, mackinley wrote: I agree with you for most the part but doesn’t Mr Ortiz criticize Slydini and Ramsay (two incredibly successful performers) somewhat harshly...? I’m sure fans could argue for both these men such as others here have defended Ortiz (whom I doubt needs defending). |
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 13:42, tobias harmann wrote: Not angry at all- just annoyed that often times good topics are derailed by people taking shots at others instead of discussing the topic at hand. It's about as annoying as having to listen to someone talk in the theatre when you are trying to pay attention to the movie.
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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tobias harmann New user North Piddle, UK 91 Posts |
I agree. Calling into question Mr. Ortiz's motivation in re-issuing his book, and accusing people of being angry, are actions that are both totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. As you say - annoying.
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michael640 Regular user 163 Posts |
Personally, I have found Darwin's books quite inspirational. I have tremendous respect for his performing and literary abilities. Although I haven't seen him perform live, my friend Michael vincent (who's opinion I respect) has, and from conversations with him, I know that he holds Darwin in very high regard.
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tobias harmann New user North Piddle, UK 91 Posts |
Yes, I agree. He knows a thing or two. Wise magicians do well to take heed of what he has to say.
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
A story. Enjoy.
I recently attended an Art Gallery (the AGO) with some friends. We passed a painting called "the rose", by Agnes Martin. It is, essentially, a white canvas with very light vertical and horizontal lines (almost invisible). I liked it. Enough that I remembered it's name long enough to go home and google. They didn't. But they didn't say it was BAD- rather they said that they didn't like it. That's different. We were discussing the painting SUBJECTIVELY, not OBJECTIVELY. Subjectively you may not like Darwin's performances (I, for instance, don't like Slydini- sorry Sly fans), but OBJECTIVELY I think you need to recognize his performances ARE good- he connects well, has strong presentations to accompany strong effects, there are good transitions, etc. Even if you DON'T agree, you would be hard pressed to convince me Darwin isn't a strong performer. So, just like with "The Rose", there's no contradiction when you say "I know it's good, but I still don't like it." Just a thought.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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tobias harmann New user North Piddle, UK 91 Posts |
That's so beautiful.
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Gary Plants Special user 549 Posts |
I attended a show many years ago at a local college (probably between 20-25 years ago). Darwin was hired to do a magic/gambling demonstation for the group of college kids. This was done in the MIDDLE of a Casino Night program. The kids were REALLY into the blackjack, poker, etc.....and then they had to stop for Darwin's show. They were none to happy, but went along with it. Things were very touchy at the start but within a very short amount of time, he had them having the time of their lives. A total, complete turnaround. This really showed Darwin's expertise with working with a tough crowd...something that I have never forgotten.
Gary Plants |
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Mark Ennis Inner circle Raleigh, NC 1031 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-29 15:18, Michael640 wrote: Can you imagine being in the same room and watching Michael Vincent and Darwin Ortiz performing routines and then discussing the psychological and presentational aspects, structure and performance of the routines? That would be awesome !! I am fairly certain that Darwin also holds Michael Vincent in very high regard as well (and rightfully so - Michael is EXCELLENT !!!)
ME
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