Just starting to have some fun with xcm and have already noticed a few things and was wondering if a few experienced members could set matters straight please.

I have read about a lot of different decks and am simply using bikes and studs till I see how I do but have noticed that when doing stuff like a one handed shuffle that they don't weave as well after about 30 min of use as they did at beginning ... guess I'm asking if I'm screwing this up or is it the brand or is this par for the course? I mean do you guys go though packs quick and if so how quick and is there a way around this.

I am also wondering about what cards you practice with all the time ... I have studied alittle what decks to shoot for like tally-ho's but I don't want to buy 2-5 packs and ruin them without proper knowledge of what I'm suppose to practice with and what is for shows ... Thanks for your time it is 3 am here so sorry if I rambled a bit

Also I'm curious of what is the differnece between cardisty and xcm?

I think that Bicycle is decent to start with. They are pretty mediocre cards, but they're priced pretty decently.

Deck life depends a lot on what you're practicing. I'm more of a close-up card magic guy, but when I'm practicing things like one-handed shuffles I expect the deck to die quickly. Fanning powder may help sometimes, but it's a pretty destructive flourish.

Depending on the bikes you buy, you'll get better results. What I mean by this is; There is a 4 back you can buy almost anywhere that sells them, and the quality is a bit higher, they tend to have a bit more spring; whereas the bricks you can buy from Costco tend to be a bit thinner with little or no spring (I don't know why this is). You will pay about that same price for the 4 pack and the 12.

Thanks for the info I think I'll just practice with the bikes Is there a retail store that sells league backed bikes or just internet? no biggy one way ore another ... thanks again

Invest in a card-clip, and after a session, faro half the deck face-up into the face-down remainder before storing in card-clip. This works great for keeping cards flat after one-handed shuffles and springs (not so well with S-bent cards like those after pressure-fan, LePaul spread, or crimps)

As for deck life, it depends greatly on what you're trying to do. One-handed faros are not very sensitive to conditions of the deck (in my hands), whereas a "simple" DL or Snap Change isn't be so simple when the cards are warped and dog-eared.

IF you take proper (porper?) care of a deck, it will last very very very long!

what you are experiencing with the one-hand shuffle is just a short term warping. If you stack a bunch of books on the deck when you're done (or get a Joe Porper clip) then check back in a while and your deck will be good as new... actually, better!

jerry the flourishman says that your deck condition is like tuning a violin. as you practice you will start to notice little things about your deck condition and when it's time to swap the one you're using out for a clipped/pressed deck. try to keep at least 3 or 4 decks in rotation at all times, because the longer it's pressed, the better it will handle when you take it out.

tally-ho are GREAT cards, definitely buy several packs, you won't regret it!

your last question, whats the difference between cardistry and XCM, has to do with what people want to call it. de'vo was a magician back in the day, but he didn't care for traditional magic (think boring spongeball routines) but rather more visual manipulations, so he coined the term XCM because he didn't like the idea of the term "flourishing" to continue as a subset of magic, but rather as a stand-alone artform. Richard Z is an excellent computer programmer/website guru that started decknique and recently joined theory11 and he likes the term "cardistry", although it has been used since 1900's to describe card magic in several books, magazines, etc, if you hear the term on his two websites (DN or t11) it's typically referring to NON-magical manipulation. However if you see the term on this website it likely means magic. Ironically, one of the professional members of the forum here, Paul Gordon (the guy that recently published a book called "cardistry") is one of those old-school magicians that HATES the new flourishing style!

there are also a lot of differences in style, for example "cardistry" practicioners are typically younger n00bs that got into the artform through a theory11 ad, and they usually do a lot of flashy editing to make card videos, and don't perform live. "XCM" is typically older or more serious practicioners of the artform, with an emphasis on uncut routining, and live performances. but that shouldn't be taken as an absolute statement, there's occasionally "cardistry" kids that actually have some serious chops, and plenty of no0bs to "XCM" as well! :-D

both styles have their advantages and disadvantages, the best student should probably learn everything from all styles and pick and choose the material that they like.

Wow thank you - I feel like I understand better and some things that didn't make since do now I'll invest in a card clip definitely ... makes sense

Also xcm is easier to spell and less letters so sounds like I'll just go with that excellent explanation trashmanf ... also have looked at most of your reviews on cards on decknique (which are very well done) and that has helped me a lot just wish I had seen them before I bought some Guardians lol

I do have one more question along these lines though ... De'vo seems to be very good at what he does but a lot don't like him ... and I just catch a jab here and there so not positive about that but was wondering what the story was with that if anyone knows? or maybe a point in the right direction of a post already describing the politics in this ... if not I'll live just curious really ... Have also noticed that even those that don't seem to like him still point to Xtreme Beginners dvd as the starting place for all ...

I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to answer this ... was starting to worry that I was going to have to buy a different deck each time after I practiced (or at least practiced some destructive things) ... so you are saving me money ... always a good thing

Well to answer your questions, a lot of people don't like De'vo because at one time or another they've got into an argument with him or gotten banned from his handlordz forum. It's a very different situation with decknique - you can basically rant and say whatever you want, whereas on HL if you say anything disrespectful it results in a quick ban. Some people really dislike this but, I think of it as like... being at an airport, you don't joke about terrorism bombs right? Its easy enough to follow the rules and get along

also some people have gotten into crediting arguments over the years with De'vo which has caused most of the "jabs" you describe. I think of this as an analogy to Ed Marlo, who was an incredibly prolific magician that also got into disagreements over who invented what, when. Ultimately the arguments come from their passion for the artform so you have to take the bad with the good. The simple fact that most people don't realize is that it's possible to independently invent something similar! So the best thing to do is just MAKE VIDEOS, and if two people disagree on crediting, who would you rather believe, a teenager that's been doing this for a year or two, or adults that have been at this for decades?

what typically happens is a n00b will want to gain some recognition from the community, so they "invent" something without having done all the research in the field to see if it's already been done.

a much better way to be is just to let your skills do the talking. the higher purpose for the pro (this is just my opinion) is to get out there and perform for lay people or magicians, attracting more attention and more potential manipulators to the artform! do you think a layman cares who invented the move? hell no! they just go "WOW I've never seen that before in my life!!!"

kinda got off on a tangent there. about XB , yes it's still the bomb value (so is XB2) for the amount of info you get for the money. It covers a lot of other things besides just moves (for example powdering and deck conditioning, deck selection, accessories, clothing, performance tips on how to get gigs etc) so that's why its recommend, even by the "haters". Most people that dislike de'vos personal actions still agree that he is very creative and skilled, and puts out high quality DVDs.

now a couple times its true that de'vo has done some things that probably can't really be seen in any positive light. what people don't understand is, the guy wasn't born De'vo Vom Shattenreich but that this is a performing persona. It's important to develop your own unique style, some people are wacky and do comedy, some people are super cool and suave, Jerry's persona was an old-time gambler, and de'vos unique niche is that of kind of a devil or hooded, mysterious evil figure. So sometimes he will do something seemingly just to **** off the kids on other forums, and if they take the bait it works sometimes too well LOL. Remember this is free advertising for him from a business standpoint as well, if on some random forum people are going "De'vo did this! de'vo did that!" then n00bs will log on and go "who's de'vo? what's this Handlordz business?" and go to his site and end up purchasing a lot of the HL products!

with all the arguments aside it's usually still pretty friendly, for example a year or so ago De'vo had some medical problem and even the most vocal anti-HL people were still wishing him a speedy recovery to health. I like to think that flourishers are such a small community that we're all kind of family in some way.

anywyas sorry for rambling on, I"m stuck on a business trip right now just sitting at my computer. thanks for the deck review compliment, I have some cool plans for the next year with that channel. Old studs are next, followed by Rares and Exotics and then a Fanning Deck review... then taking it in a bit different direction, possibly hopefully even making a DVD.

Thanks again trashmanf I think I understand the situation and the politics of it much better ... it is much appreciated ... hard understanding a situation or community without the past knowledge so thanks for catching me up some ... The more I read the posts on decknique and theory11 I think I might be alittle old to be messing with flourishing but on the other hand I've always refused to conform so maybe I'll just change my name to exception ... figure I like it so the hell with it

Anyway liked this part the most in your post "with all the arguments aside it's usually still pretty friendly, for example a year or so ago De'vo had some medical problem and even the most vocal anti-HL people were still wishing him a speedy recovery to health. I like to think that flourishers are such a small community that we're all kind of family in some way." Beautiful thing that

Looking forward to more of your reviews and a dvd would be nice ... good luck with that ... thanks again

Wow, this cleared a lot up for me. I was just searching and came across this thread randomly and feel like I learned my daily dose of knowledge. Thanks guys!

I have never been into the xcm/cardistry stuff too much, but always used just little flourishes to spice up my routines so I never took the time to check out all the sites that are primarily "cardistry" sites. I am in the process now and there is some good stuff.

It is worth noting that Bicycles are all a bit thinner now, since the USPCC (Jarden owned, by the way) move to the Erlanger, Kentucky facility.

The old Rider back tuck case Bikes were from the plant in Cincinnati and had noticeably more body and snap.

But that dog don’t hunt anymore...

You should test many different brands and find the ones that you like best and that hold up best for you. The main thing is never leave a good deck in a hot car during the summer as it will buckle! For some flourishes a nice soft deck works just fine, and for other flourishes a brand new crisp deck is better.

Yep, it's all going to be your personal preference. I've been using Bikes for over ten years for both xcm and card magic. It's not an issue in XCM but when it comes to card magic (gambling routine, etc.), I occasionally resort to a brand that doesn't have a border on it.

As already mentioned, buy a Porper Card Clip when you get a chance! Regardless of what deck you choose, the card clip WILL save you money (and deck life) in the long run. I currently live in Florida and the humidity is a KILLER on my cards. The card clip prevents the heat from buckling the cards, saves the deck (and box) when I accidentally drop it, and definitely extends the deck life. A quick search of the workers section will show you how valuable the Porpler Card Clip really is.

Tally Ho's are certainly regarded very highly by the workers but I'm not so sure about using them for XCM. BTW, I think trashman was right-on with most of his points!

I tried plastic cards and I can't use them at all. is it me or has anyone else found that they just don't work for them?

No? okay!

Plastic cards are generally eschewed by most card workers. They don't fan or spread well. It's mainly because the texture of the plastic makes it 'grippy' and so the cards tend to stick. You can squeeze out a fan if you do a pressure fan, but that's about it. Also a LePaul spread works too. Most cuts that involve packets will work as well, but the friction is likely to make things difficult at times. I have seen some plastic Bicycle cards that perport to have an 'airflow' finish, and supposedly feel like paper cards. They do work much better that regular plastic cards, but they aren't quite good enough to come close to replacing paper cards in the relm of flourishing. You can fan them but the fans aren't nearly smooth enough. You can do most moves with them just fine though. It just takes some getting used to, and you have to slightly change the way you're handling the packets so that things don't fall apart on you.

Have you check out the Bicycle Prestige? There are plastic, but very close to paper like feel, not exact of course, but an improvement on past plastics. I was so impressed that I went back and bought all they had in-stock. I am going through decks way to fast, so I am re-considering plastics.

Jerry

I have and they're the nicest plastic cards I've seen. I don't use them still, because I regularly perform effects like Torn and Restored and The One Card Link, so I buy bikes at costco. Just over a buck a deck is good for me. I also don't handle the cards roughly so they last a fair amount of time. The prestige cards also still do not fan as smoothly as I would like, and much of the flourishes I do involve fans.
But if they work good for what you want to do, that sounds like the way to go.

MagicJuggler, I totally agree with your statement. What I plan on doing is, techniques that are really abusive on the cards I will use plastic until I feel I am on a consistent working level, then switch over to normal* cards.

Otherwise (fans, some flourishes)I will use normal card stock. It may happen one day, but for now, I don't think plastic will replace paper. However I do believe it is a possible alternative for some.

8thKing, I am having productive results using plastic.

Jerry

*One man's normal is another man's abnormal...