|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] | ||||||||||
Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
As someone who has been a target of crticism in the past on these boards, let me just say this:
I agree with Steven that HOW you voice your opinion and your own ability or lack thereof regarding the subject at hand DOES, in fact, determine the value of your opinion. Now I'm not speaking directly to anyone who has posted in this thread. But it is interesting to me to note that, when someone like Darwin is the guest of the month, in those forums there is basically nothing but gushing reviews for the most part. Then, in the general forums where said "VIP's" do not typically post, we read the negative criticisms. IMO, if you wouldn't say something to the person if you were sitting with him at dinner at a convention or coffee after a lecture, you shouldn't post it here, whether that person's name is Darwin Ortiz, Harry Lorayne, David Roth, Steve Youell, or Joe Mud.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
|||||||||
magicator Loyal user 201 Posts |
How about refocussing on the original post of this thread? Cinemagician had a question about a ribbon spread that looks really pretty in the hands of Ortiz!
|
|||||||||
TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
A springy ribbon spread is very useful when displaying cards in a certain condition. I think I learned that good idea from Lennart Green.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
|||||||||
Claudio Inner circle Europe 1927 Posts |
Here’s a comment by Darwin Ortiz from his book The Annotated Erdnase:
“I have great affection and great respect for The Expert at the Card Table. I do, however, make a distinction between respect and idolatry.” Let’s not make the same mistake. Darwin is a great cardman, no doubt, and his skill is fantastic. However objectively his centre deal as demoed has a few flaws. I bought a copy of the tape (Cheating at cards) when it first came out (10 years or so ago, I can’t recall exactly) and I remember being disappointed when watching this particular move. The tape is great and has a multitude of beautifully executed moves, but the centre deal is definitely flawed. That’s a fact and unless dogmatism is blinding you, it’s all too visible. |
|||||||||
kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
^^^ great post.
And Johnathan had a good point, has anyone asked him, pm maybe?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
|||||||||
puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-11 13:05, cinemagician wrote: I have to laugh, while dodging some of the more personal / political posts, I read this advice. First time I tried it, I recreated the stage effect 'The Card Fountain'! Once I had picked up all the cards from the floor, I tried again some what more successfully! Thanks for the tip |
|||||||||
Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Y'know I've seen Mr. Ortiz's center deal on video and his other deals, and somethings I like and other things, not so much, but all this talk about seeing it in context has me wondering if this wouldn't lead to some kind of interminable interpretation of these moves?
Will mastering the move suffice, have I to master it using a right handed grip, do I need to watch it after three fingers of Lafroaig and a Holsten, must I see the move live as well as on tape, demo'd as well as taught, do I need to befriend Mr. Ortiz suffer a betrayal and then reconciliation, do I need to meet his family and go back to the old neighborhood, and most important, do I need to enjoy cats and moustaches before I can make any sort of judgement? Why don't these DVDs and tapes have warning labels on them letting us know that things are not as they seem? A. Just sitting here awaiting the release date of the SEY Book of Manners...
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
|||||||||
RamonT Regular user 200 Posts |
Just sitting here awaiting the release date of the SEY Book of Manners...
Ditto. |
|||||||||
Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Let me try again.
I would take the same stance with almost ANYONE-- not just Oritz. It's not about him. It's about drawing negative conclusions about a performer without sufficient evidence or experience and then publishing those conclusions in a public forum. I simply find that behavior abhorrent. SEY |
|||||||||
JordanB Special user dallas, tx 626 Posts |
I have to say I agree with Scott's post above with one minor change. I would change the word "ability" to "knowledge". I think Scott is dead on. Don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone sitting across from you.....that's my rule of thumb at least.
With regards to the way Darwin spreads, I always thought it was kind of cool. With regards to the center deal. I won't comment on Darwin's technique, but I think that if you are really going to debate it then you have to get into a discussion on the merits of the center deal as a move. That is beyond the scope of this thread imo. Although, I wish someone would put in print the center deal that Forte did on the Lance Burton special...hmmmm... |
|||||||||
Nosher Loyal user 261 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-12 05:00, Frank Starsini wrote: Me too, Frank. It's surprising just how deceptive it can look.
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
|
|||||||||
Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
Right, so it was me who brought up the center deal and I almost feel sorry now for all the flaming the topic seems to have caused. Just to make things clear, the idea never was to criticize Ortiz in any way. I actually am a fan of the man and am reading "strong magic" at the moment, which I think is best one of the best books on magic I've ever read.
So I had never seen a center deal performed (live, or on film) and was merely surprised that I could spot it. So the question was simply "is this normal, or can it be perfected so that it is unnoticeable". I still think this is a pretty normal question, and, yes, I would've asked it to Mr. Ortiz if I was sitting in front of him. (I would probably give my left feet, or some other limb not essential to card or coin magic, to sit in front of him by the way!) And all this to get a mud throwing contest about respect vs. freedom of speech... sigh. |
|||||||||
Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Enzo,
I think it is the rare performer, ideed, who can do a center deal at all. It is even rarer for one of those performers, in front of the unblinking eye of the camera, to TELL you that he is demonstrating a center deal before and as he does it, and have you not see SOMETHING while your eyes are glued to his hands WATCHING for it. This is what Mr. Youell means by "context". Yes, you may well see the move on the video. The camera doesn't blink, move, or get distracted, and you see more "in frame" than you would in person. Further, "in context" the performer would be using the move while cheating or in a magic effect. So he wouldn't TELL you he was doing it. It would be "in the context" of a whole series of actions. You wouldn't know what to look for, and he would likely be distracting you with "patter." In a cheating context, he would likely have a partner who would be engaging you in conversation or an argument at the time. In these instances, with no knowledge that the person was about to do the move, or that the situation CALLED for the move, or that the performer KNOWS and can DO the move--if you can spot it in THESE situations, THAT would call for public criticism. That's how I look at it anyway.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
|||||||||
Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-12 19:09, Scott F. Guinn wrote: Scott, I can see your point if you're talking about a review in a magazine or even a legitimate review on a site. But this constant sniping at well known performers from anonymous posters or posters who have not demonstrated they have the qualifications to make such judgements is just wrong. And when I say "qualifications", I'm not talking about being able to flawlessly perform all the false deals or even be able to do the DPS-- I talking about someone who at least can demonstrate some knowledge of the subject and perhaps has posted a video or two of their work. Do you see any of the magazines letting "just anyone" do reviews? No. That's because they realize that for the review to have credibility, the reviewer has to have some credentials. I guess the majority of people on internet forums sincerely feel that having broadband qualifies you to pass judgement on other people with little or not thought. SEY |
|||||||||
Griff Loyal user Florida 285 Posts |
As for the original question, once you learn this method of ribbon spreading you will probably always use it. It can be done with almost any deck (including plastic cards), in almost any condition on any surface. It just gives a nice professional touch especially with a borrowed deck in bad shape. I learned it by watching him on video...not sure if there is actually an explanation given anywhere.
As for the original crit. of Darwin's center deal and comparing it to Guy's deal...this is apples to oranges. Darwin's demo is a known and real technique that actually is or could be used at the tables (the Allen Kennedy deal) and it is demonstrated on a video that shows nothing but real cheating techniques. Guy's deal is a great one for a magic routine (a pseudo cheating technique). I love Guy's deal but I don't think it could be used in an actual game, which takes me back to Darwin's premise for his DVD...Card Cheating (the real stuff). The Kennedy center deal is IMO one of the most difficult moves possible with a deck and there are only a handfull (if that) that can actually do it under fire. One more point about Ortiz's DVD/video. There are SO MANY real techniques that are demonstrated (most done expertly IMO), there is no way that ANYONE can do all of these to perfection. Most actual cheats specialize in a few moves and do them perfectly. Darwin did an amazing job of showing most of them. Are there some portions of the DVD that I like better than others?...Yeah, but I am not going to come here on a public forum and try to criticize any of his work or try to compare actual cheating techniques with the magician's versions for entertainment purposes. IMO it is apples to oranges. Learn this ribbon spread. It is a lot of fun! |
|||||||||
Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-12 21:30, Steven Youell wrote: I understand your point. However, there is some real garbage being put out these days. If you own a product that is truly bad and someone makes a post asking for input because they're thinking of buying that product, I think it is legitimate to post your opinion stating why you don't like, understanding the constraints mentioned above.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
|||||||||
Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
Quote:
I think it is the rare performer, ideed, who can do a center deal at all. It is even rarer for one of those performers, in front of the unblinking eye of the camera, to TELL you that he is demonstrating a center deal before and as he does it, and have you not see SOMETHING while your eyes are glued to his hands WATCHING for it. Point taken, but these are the exact conditions Vernon was in when watching Kennedy perform the move for the first time. He reports it as being "flawless". Also, many people after him report to be able to do the move "flawlessly". Were they exaggerating? These reports were actually all I had read about the center deal, hence my "disappointment" when I saw it performed by whom I consider to be one of the best card mechanics around. Were my expectations too high (of the move, not of Ortiz)? The other moves on the video are flawless, by the way. |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
I've seen Bill Kalush and (in different circumstance) Ricky Jay do it right under these conditions as I thought that only Fred Robinson could have done it.
Some card men do it. Really. I understand that Martin Nash is one of them as well
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
The Mysterious Kid New user 85 Posts |
@Lawrence O
Where have you seen Bill Kalush? Here in Europe? I've heard so many great things about him, but unfortunitly never saw him. Regarding Ricky Jay did he do a real center deal or a demonstration like in 52 assistants? As far as I'm aware Martin A. Nash couldn't do a "real" center (Meaning to put four cards on the bottom, cut the deck and than deal the cards from that spot). The Technique Mr. Nash use(s)/d was original to him and is very good for demonstrations. Andrew Wimhurst is the only person I'm aware of, who uses a real center deal in magic today. Regarding the usefulness at the card table of the center deal one should have a look at Steve Forte's PP Book |
|||||||||
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Here we go again - "flawless" and "flawlessly" are words like the "best" and are often used to make a "good story" or in advertising - at least that is my opinion.
I use the center deal in my work from time to time. This plus my scissor bottom dealing thirds and seconds all have a place in my work. In my opinion doing the work in front of a live audience - is very different than doing the work in front of a video camera - where the video is "spot" on your hands. Video also has a way that it can be edited so it can make "good" work look very bad - but it can also make "bad" work look good - with the right editing. In my opinion the center deal is a great move and it has it place in magic - like a good second deal does - done at the right time and in the right place. Just my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Ortiz- why does he do this? (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |