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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » To those who think Derren Brown uses no no Covert Hypnosis or NLP, Watch This!!! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Eddini_81976
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Yes, I know he gives it as a "fake explanation too", but I do strongly think he uses it in many routines. This one is funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkA1k4QAXUI
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
bobser
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Ed you're a lovely guy, but I think everyone and their dog now know that:
1) Yes, his production/management company: Obective, do use hypnosis (not necessarily covert)
and
2) NLP doesn't exist. Well, not really.

bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Eddini_81976
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Well I only said that because LOTS of Magicians say he just uses classic mentalism and B.S.'s about NLP & Hypnosis. HE DOES USE both though. That's why I wrote that. As far as NLP, I have to disagree. It exists just as Cognitive Behabioral Therapt (CBT) exists. I do a anchoring routine that proves that. I have someone close their eyes, I tell them to picture the most pleasurable experience ever and as I count to 10 it gets stronger and to really see what happens. I ask if that emotion is at full peak (then I'll touch them on a certain spot), they say yes I say 10, open your eyes. I'll talk about something totally non related for like 2 minutes, I'll touch that spot, and you'll see them physically react with pleasure. I'll ask, did you feel a surge of pleasure just now, they say freakily yes. I'll touch that spot like 5 times in a row, and their like whoa. Then I explain excatly how it was done (it's not magic or anything), and they're impressed. So I've seen and done NLP. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
mindpunisher
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The thing about being on here here Ed is that you can make things not exist if you want...

Bobser doesn't really exist....not really..
Anthony Jacquin
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Hi Ed,

could you name half a dozen DB routines that you think use hypnosis/NLP as the means to achieve the effect?

The link you posted does not work for me - what routine is it?

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Harry Lucas
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Ant, it's the routine where a student gets in the state of being drunk without drinking any alcohol.

Harry
swiss_magician
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Hi Anthony,

your question was for Ed, but I may be interested to have your feedback on my little list here:

well, let's try to find half a dozen (at least) of them:
- Train of thought? = forget metro station
- The alcool free drunk state?
- The vodoo doll with the new age blonde girl?
- The famous 'russian scam'?
- The routine with the 3 med-students (tooth ache and needle in the hand)?
- The darkest fears (woman in the dark, imagining a brick wall protecting her from her fears)?
- The 'spooky-train' guy (sorry, can't come up with a name in english right now)?
- The uplifting hand in the shopping mall?
- The spoon bending without having the spoons bent? (couple of girls hallucinating the bending)

The question marks are intended because I am of course not totally sure, but these are some of the performances that seem to genuinely rely on suggestions and hypnosis to work imho.

Cheers

M.
Eddini_81976
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Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
bobser
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I did a dry run for a radio show yesterday on NLP. I used a young 21 year old ('addicted' to blow since 12 yrs old)and at the end of the stint everyone was totally amazed at just how strong NLP can be. So strong it 'appeared' that I was completely reading his mind and forcing him to say certain things in a certain way, but of course it became obvious to the people there, through my apparent honesty, that I wasn't really reading his mind, but rather I was a complete expert in the field of NLP.
What they didn't know was I'd met the lad earlier and used hypnosis with amnesia as suggested to me by Anthony Jacquin. Thanks Ant, you're a star. It simply worked exactly as you said it would.

Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Athos
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Hypnosis can be used in any form of Pre-show, as well.

:)

Max.
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Eddini_81976
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True Max, that's different from what I was speaking about as far as Stooges. Most groups go backstage go in and out of Hypnosis a few times before bringing them on stage either as a Talk show...etc. That's fine. I was talking a Magician before filming saying to someone now you do this when that happens. If I read your mind agree with me...etc B.S. , Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Anthony Jacquin
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Good list. Interestingly nearly all of the examples were in Derrens first series in the UK. Spoons? Think again Smile

Anthony



Quote:
On 2009-02-18 12:27, swiss_magician wrote:
Hi Anthony,

your question was for Ed, but I may be interested to have your feedback on my little list here:

well, let's try to find half a dozen (at least) of them:
- Train of thought? = forget metro station
- The alcool free drunk state?
- The vodoo doll with the new age blonde girl?
- The famous 'russian scam'?
- The routine with the 3 med-students (tooth ache and needle in the hand)?
- The darkest fears (woman in the dark, imagining a brick wall protecting her from her fears)?
- The 'spooky-train' guy (sorry, can't come up with a name in english right now)?
- The uplifting hand in the shopping mall?
- The spoon bending without having the spoons bent? (couple of girls hallucinating the bending)

The question marks are intended because I am of course not totally sure, but these are some of the performances that seem to genuinely rely on suggestions and hypnosis to work imho.

Cheers

M.
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol


I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Eddini_81976
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I have and have, and have and CAN NOT get my head wrapped around this stuff. To me it's either set-ups, or he's using Hypnosis, Convert Hypnosis, NLP, and other "Classical Mentalism means. I'm not saying at all he doesn't swindle us with a clssic mentalism feeat such as Smoke where the person's card winds up in his mouth. Look at the 3 of Diamonds trick, CLASSIC NLP. Maybe we should each define what NLP is, because to me it's hard to explain. A verbal Suggestion is Hypnosis (talking 3 of Diamonds Again Trick)BUT when it's Non-Verbal it becomes NLP/Covert Hypnosis which I tend to think are one and the same. Either it's that or he's pulling a Chris Angel on us which I'm 99% sure he isn't. Okay one I forgot to mention is when he gave those 4 colloge students tooth aches just by mentioning it at first then kinda going into detail and tapping the mouths of each person and you can see they hurt, but when he snaps his finger or whatever it goes away. He EVEN explains on this one website I know (Go to Derren Brown on Wikipedia) how to tell if someone's lying. To me suggestion is not Magic or Mentalism but falls within Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis - NLP. One effect he he hell how he did it, he was in a upstairs apartment having this lady walk, then stop walking. They showed a lady on the street walking but stopped when the lady upstairs did. Then of course he did the "Invisible Man (HYPNOTIST) Routine" but a bit different. I see what you're saying. I got tons of mentalism, maybe not the right effects, books or DVD'S maybe. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Alex1
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"...Yes the paper money..."

I have heard that the blank paper effect is done via a Luke Jermay effect called Big Spender. Haven't seen the effect so I can't say for sure though.
WillBox
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Eddini, there is quite a crossover between mentalism and covert hypnosis or whatever you want to call it in that both require suggestion to some degree, and crafting a belief (or the imagination) within someone's head. In a way, the method is irrelevant, its still suggestion based whether you are deceiving them in some way or not. I have pulled off the toothache effect on a highly-suggestible subject before because they are receptive to the suggestion that I am doing something to their mouth by touching the side. All they have to do is lock their mind around the idea that its going to hurt (which is implied with language, tone, style etc) and they'll feel it. Remember that Derren would have put the odds in his favour by pre-screening his people beforehand, and we have no idea how he might prime them as well (even post hypnotic suggestions for all we know).

The invisible man routine I think was hypnosis/suggestion based, the woman stopping in the room I'm not so sure, I think it was more dual reality somehow but we don't know what her reality was. I think the embedded commands (stopping days until christmas etc) are just a red herring to throw you off the scent.

Swiss-magicians list is good - I would agree (exception being the arms lifting in shopping mall, I think dual reality is going on here also) and I do much prefer Derrens earlier, more curious Chan Canasta style work over the later tricksy fool-proof stuff.
Eddini_81976
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Thanks Will, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Machina
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Quote:
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol


I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony


Anthony
I agree with the above, many things I had thought before were NLP/hypnosis was Derren doing what he does best. It took me ages to get my head around his methods.
Ps I finally got my greedy hands on a copy of Lift and Reminiscence.
This "has nothing to do with the Magician who doesn't like Rock n Roll!" Corinda

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Machina
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Quote:
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol


I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony


Anthony
I agree with the above, many things I had thought before were NLP/hypnosis was Derren doing what he does best. It took me ages to get my head around his methods.
Ps I finally got my greedy hands on a copy of Lift and Reminiscence.
This "has nothing to do with the Magician who doesn't like Rock n Roll!" Corinda

www.mechanicsofthemind.com
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
...I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned...



I agree. There is an old adage that goes, "if all you have is a hammer, all of your problems look like nails." I have laughed so much in NLP-oriented forums when people who are not trained in NLP (but have read "lots of stuff" on line) but are so focused on NLP, and who know nothing about mentalism, give long descriptions of how DB uses NLP to achieve simple mentalism effects. When I finally point out that the discussion should be on a forum associated with magic, not NLP, and that what DB does is mentalist tricks using NLP, hypnosis, etc. as a form of misdirection, the people attack me and defend their own lack of knowledge.

So I point out:
1) NLP is not about public performance, it's about personal change
2) One of the key features of NLP is having a "series of techniques" and training to tell when one technique is not effective so you can switch to another technique
3) The same techniques do not work on everyone
4) As an entertainer, DB must always be successful and rapid--can't rely on NLP for that
5) Although DB claims less than 100% success, we don't see him fail.
6) It's TV. It's called "editing." How much happens that we don't see?
7) DB has published books on mentalism that he performs
8) DB uses all of this discussion for great publicity

After I post this list, or something like it, there's usually a pause in the thread for a short time, then it is completely ignored and people still keep posting about DB's use of hypnosis and NLP to achieve basic mentalist effects.
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