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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » To those who think Derren Brown uses no no Covert Hypnosis or NLP, Watch This!!! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Nongard1
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Pause....

Actually I always point out its tv entertainment not a news broadcast. What you see is not what you got. In your list #5-6 are the most overlooked, becasue, people want to BELIEVE...
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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Thomas Kwon
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I remember some kids posting that LIFT by Derren Brown was accomplished with NLP or Hypnosis.
I watched his performance of lift, and I laughed my ass off.
People are too ignorant nowadays.
Anthony Jacquin
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Lift was one of the first routines I saw of his and I still love it.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

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swiss_magician
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Maybe if people were willing to spend some time and a little amount of money to read "Tricks of the Mind", they would have some answers concerning Derren's point of view about hypnosis, and NLP. As he is pointing out in this text, he never mentions the use of NLP in his TV show disclaimer. He doesn't even mention hypnosis by the way, but 'suggestion'. Does he use NLP, hypnosis? Bah, let's call it 'suggestive techniques' as he names it, and that should be fine Smile

M.
Anthony Jacquin
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Fair point. However, regardless of what he pitches in TotM book regarding the theory of hypnosis it would be shortsighted to think this makes any difference to his practical use of it. He is entirely aware and capable of using the phenomena and hallucinations, catalepsy and amnesia are workable, especially so with the luxury of TV. It matters not if he thinks this is due to compliance, playing along or his brain resonating with yours at 40Hz. It works.

The problem some mystery performers have with being open about hypnosis is that for a portion of the public who accept hypnosis is involved, if their belief is that you can make people do anything with hypnosis, then it can take away from the mystery. So the choice seems to be to use it sparingly and wisely, mostly with invisible compromise and play it down to your lay audience. Treat it like the dirtiest part of the effect.

Ant
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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dmkraig
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Anthony, you make a great point.

A few months ago I saw Jeff McBride give a lecture. One of the things he stated that impressed me was that the really well-known performers develop a persona and then always appear in persona. Mae West developed her Diamond Lil personality and always appeared that way. Harry Anderson is always in a hat and suspenders.

Assuming DB functions along these lines, what he writes--even to the magic community--is going to further that persona. It's part of his act...and more power to him for it!
bobser
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I agree, a persona absolutely. Even when they DON'T think they're acting within one the reality may still be true.
I also agree that it doesn't matter a jot what DB says, believes, insists upon or mereley thinks is a good idea (it maybe does actually, but you'll never hear or read them). He's a close-magician who was squeezed into a different tube, which he found quite comfortable by the way. Ok, he's actually excellent within its form! However, his thoughts, outside his immediate family affairs, are worth no more then our own beloved: Mindpunisher. Howevr the public are the public, and they want/need to believe. And that's a truism. And truisms become truisms because they're true.
I remember Paul Daniels telling me several years ago that that weekend after appearing on 'Wheeltappers and Shunters' (massive variety TV show in the 70's here in the UK)his fees went up ten-fold and fellow pros hung on his every word. But he was still Paul with the same ideas.
Ok so DB pitches untruths or bends facts... I could feel myself going off on another tangent there... sorry.

bobser
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Pakar Ilusi
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Here is one where Derren Brown seem to be using an induction outright...

Or am I wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTml6AY-1RQ&feature=related

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
swiss_magician
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I remembered this one after having sent my list in this thread Smile
During the first times I watched this clip, I almost drifted away in front of my screen.

Everything is set to make it work: light spirals, relaxing new age-like music Smile, and of course the script. What I like about this one is that you do not need to choose the most suggestible people...the selection is self made as people walk by.
Sweeeet Smile

Cheers,

M.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-02-24 04:39, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Here is one where Derren Brown seem to be using an induction outright...

Or am I wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTml6AY-1RQ&feature=related

Smile


Have you ever been to Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum in London? I have, on two different occasions. In spite of the implication that he (and his crew) just walked in (although they wouldn't give him a wax figure), I can assure you that there is NO WAY to have accomplished this without the full cooperation of the management. This was NOT some impromptu demonstration, but a well-prepared exhibition.

From the demonstration, although he kept saying to look at him, they were all looking down. I could have achieved the same response from people by saying, "I'd like to try an experiment. Please, if you'd like to participate, stand here and close your eyes. Now, focus on the musical sounds in the background. See if you can see color in the sound. Keep listening. The person who does this the longest will receive 20 Euros." And repeat this over and over. No hypnosis, just getting people to focus.

Of course, even Braid recognized that what he called hypnosis wasn't sleep but was being singularly focused. Still, what I saw was a prepared presentation that could have been anything.
Pakar Ilusi
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Hmm...

Interesting, if differing, takes on that clip swiss_magician and dmkraig...

I can see how both sides see it...

I don't have enough experience to make a judgement call really...

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Eddini_81976
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I guess it depends upon your definition of NLP, and or Hypnosis. One of my definitions of NLP is using suggestion verbally (Covert Hypnosis), or non-verbally, his 3 of diamonds trick which I know doesn't work all the time. He's even given the secret away to his lying test. He'll have someone say name 5 things numbering them that you did yesterday. By watching (non-verbal) them they'll do something different on one of them. Again I know that technique isn't 100% accurate. I also knos, in paying with paper they showed one the hotdog guy...lol. I KNOW he uses it to B.S. people as well. People have told me to look at it from a Mentalist point of view, I HAVE, I TRIED. Also look back to my achoring routine. IT WORKS, I'VE SEEN IT. I even explain to the people and talk about NLP to them. What am I missing? WE know he doesn't use stooge work, actors, or camera editing okay except maybe his mess-ups. Also as Magicians we even say we're using a technique for one trick (though we're not), BUT use it for another trick. I tell you what. I'll list my Mentalism Books and DVD'S, and tell me which book(s) to look at to do (so I'm looking at it from a mentalist point of view), so I ca do "BMX Bike", "Dummy", "Advertising Routine", "The Hiest", "Where He Makes THe Girl's Car Change Color (Swish Pattern)", "Zombies". If I don't have the book to do those EXACT (EXACT) routines besides Derren's Books, tell me exactly the book or video to get. If you can't then you HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on.

1) 13 Steps
2) Practical Mental
3) Paramiracles
4) Banachek's PSI Series (DVD)
5) Illuminations (Jermay)
6) Mind Mysteries (DVD)
7) Kenton Knepper Book (Not Wonder Words, but this proves my theory true a little)
8) Peek Performances
9) Prism
10) Mental Miracles (DVD)
11) Mental Masterpieaces (DVD)
12) Theater of the Mind
13) Mind, Myth, and Magick (AWESOME BOOK)
14) Jon Tremaines Close-Up Mental Act (DVD)
15) Craig Karges Notes
16) World of Super Mentalism (Becker)

Like I said maybe I don't have the right learning material. You tell me, Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2009-02-24 12:44, Eddini_81976 wrote:If I don't have the book to do those EXACT (EXACT) routines besides Derren's Books, tell me exactly the book or video to get. If you can't then you HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on.
(Eddini), C.H.


No I do not have to admit that. You have enough books. If you were a mentalist who had never heard of hypnosis or anchoring how would you do paying with paper? Just have a lucky guess. The important thing to note is exactly what you see in the video of this routine. What do you actually see?

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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Now on Kindle and Audible!
Eddini_81976
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If I had to guess it was stooge work. He doesn't use them though. Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
dmkraig
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Ed, may the gods bless you! I KNOW you totally want to believe that DB is using some form of advanced NLP and hypnosis because, if he can do it so can you or I...every time. Unfortunately, NLP just doesn't work that way. I absolutely love your enthusiasm and verve, and I hope that some day you'll actually get some real, in-person training in NLP and become a practitioner, a master practitioner, or even a trainer. When you do, you may find that you'll look back and say, "Boy, my definition of NLP as 'using suggestion verbally (Covert Hypnosis), or non-verbally' was sooooo oversimplified!"

No, Ed, I don't "HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on." What I DO fully admit, and with great admiration, is that DB uses some amazing verbal misdirection.

You know, a really good magician should be able to pull an equivoque on another trained magician and if he or she is really good, the second magician shouldn't even realize that a "magician's choice" is being used. It doesn't require NLP. It doesn't require hypnosis. It doesn't require covert hypnosis. It just requires great verbal misdirection. Of course, it's possible to define misdirection as NLP or hypnosis or covert hypnosis. So we can make just about anything into NLP if we want.

Perhaps that's why, instead of coming up with our own definitions of NLP we should consider using those of B&G (and maybe Dilts, too). Wouldn't that make more sense?
bobser
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I think it's all been said. But I'd throw in 2 more things(obvious to workers I know). The first thing is that we have all witnessed astounding evidence that a good hypnotist with a good subject can, in time, achieve miracles. And secondly, If I were the worst at anything in the world, with the right set up and given enough time, money and as many subjects to throw my poor skills at, a professional EDIT would make me seem God-like.
I know I said 2 more things, but I'd also like to throw in 'people'. People can be clever without being too smart. And with the proper hype (I truly believe mentalists can learn tons from 'show-hypnotists' about hype) emotions flow like a raging river. I happened to slip on a NW yesterday and had people turning white with elementery stuff that a first year mentalist or magish would easily accomplish. Now then, gimme a budget and let me use intellectual bendy words which have very little resemblance to reality and I become..... well, whatever they construct of me.

bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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>>>>No, Ed, I don't "HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on." What I DO fully admit, and with great admiration, is that DB uses some amazing verbal misdirection<<<

Actually some of the top trainers in NLP were fooled by Derren Brown believing him to be real. Even today there are many NLP companies that believe Derren is Genuine. I used to love attending NLP meetings and demonstrating mentalism.

They are such an easy gullible bunch to fool.

Having said that Derren DOES by default use some NLP. Much of his early character was modelled on Bandler. And therefore the charaisma generated by his persona is partly responsable. The handshake induction the language he used in many of his early works were very Bandleresque.

It is also a possibility by studying NLP he has picked up some techniques and structures for maximizing presentations. ( He has studied it just because he slates it in public doesn't mean his opinion is correct - or even is his genuine opinion)
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-02-24 14:26, Eddini_81976 wrote:
If I had to guess it was stooge work. He doesn't use them though. Ed, (Eddini), C.H.


I wouldn't believe any claims Derren makes. I think he may use them occasionally.

One that comes to mind was when he had a female clench her fist and say stop while looking out her window. And someone on the street stopped and looked up. The person on the street was obviously being signaled to stop when she clenched her hand and said stop.

The person in the street was most likely a stooge. If Derren lies about using NLP then its fair to assume he would lie about not using stooges. Lets face it Derren has made his fortune from being a very good liar. I think it was his lawyer training. Lawyer/liar almost the same.
bobser
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The great thing about claiming to use what we now term NLP is that nobody, not even NLP trainers, can challenge you and claim you're not.
It' great when NLP people (big spectrum I know)come up to you after a show and tell you that they recognised the principles that you 'oh so cleverly embraced' in your presentation and you smile, and smile and just... smile. And they don't really know why you're smiling.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Well we agree on one thing - messing with the heads of NLPers can be a lot of fun.

They are like the scientists that Banachek fooled. They so desparately want to believe. As do the new age spiritual community.

But what if I told you its not only possible to use this - NLP suggestion, hypnosis whatever you want to call it - for real but also easy to prove.
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