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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts 
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Bravo, Domino +1
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NurseRob Elite user Dallas, TX 469 Posts
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Buyer Beware!! When you get a second hand DVD from a Café member who openly sells in this common market freely and without scorn...the seller passes the horrific sin to the buyer who then takes the heat for denying the original artist the sale. The hidden cost for the purchase is the wrath of the originator of the product. We all should never buy or sell ANYTHING here again..I have never seen a single post from any original artist berating the reseller of their used videos, or tricks but the buyer now is the low life in the transaction...doesn't seem right to me..If this practice is so wrong WHY IS IT ALLOWED on this site. The reality is people buy and sell here: this practice exists, so WHY don't we accept it and be grown ups about it. When your stuff gets resold (this includes the tricks and gimmicks we are all buying and selling here), perhaps it was not right for the original purchaser, and it's value is passed on to a brother in whom it may help..it helps everyone when there is a free market.
Ut imago est animi voltus sic indices oculi ~
The face is a picture of the mind as the eyes are its interpreter ~Cicero |
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts
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Quote:
It doesn't matter what it says at the beginning of a magic DVD, it is legal to rent them. Some of my DVDs say "authorized for sale and rental", others only sale, not rental. Is this a void claim? Quote:
I wonder though, how many of you would apply this to another subject - say cooking for example. You can buy, sell and rent cooking DVDs and books. Recipes are secrets just as magic tricks are. Any ethical issues with that or is just limited to magic? Very nice analogy. You're totally right. Quote:
but as discussed many times in this forum, copying for personal use doesn't violate the law. That's why it's outrageous that some DVDs and CDs are still "copy controlled". |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Enzo, it doesn't matter what the DVD says. You can legally rent it, if you so desire. It is "YOUR" right as part of the first Sale Doctrine
Case Law: In 1979 Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. (often called "The Betamax Case"), determined that because the VCR was capable of substantial noninfringing uses, copyright owners objecting to infringement could not prevent its sale. The ruling, coupled with the high price of the first few movies on VHS and Betamax tapes ($50 each) created a large market for home video rental. Retailers purchased the expensive tapes and rented them to consumers at an affordable price, while studios earned considerable revenue from volume sales to rental stores. First-sale doctrine excused these merchants from seeking permission from the copyright holders.[citation needed] The Consumer Video Sales/Rental Amendment of 1983 (1983, H.R. 1029/S. 33) would have required stores to obtain permission from copyright owners before renting videotapes to the public. The bill was defeated. |
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NurseRob Elite user Dallas, TX 469 Posts
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I have cooled considerably since my previous rant..to the following resolution: I will no longer purchase anything magical second hand here again. There is clearly a different set of standards in this community, that is absent in the rest of the free world markets. My bad.
Ut imago est animi voltus sic indices oculi ~
The face is a picture of the mind as the eyes are its interpreter ~Cicero |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts
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If you were to be a person that cared about the person that brought you the information (Not entertainment), you would not be the sort of person who would give their knowledge away.
Now as most people are degenerate self-centered ***s (As anyone should know), one should know that trust in humanity is a mistake. Put a thing in the hands of most people the thing will be misused. If the misuse of your "thing" is a serious issue, do not put your "thing" in anyone's hands... Or b*tch and moan, I don't care.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts
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Quote:
Enzo, it doesn't matter what the DVD says. You can legally rent it, if you so desire. It is "YOUR" right as part of the first Sale Doctrine Cool. But does this hold in Europe as well? (Just for the record, I wasn't talking about magic DVDs specifically) |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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There are international copyright laws, but this is where it gets sticky. Many European countries have reverted rental rights to the artists. In that case, America is behind the eight ball. Furthermore, under GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade), the United States must abolish the First Sale Doctrine for 'cinematic works' if there is evidence of widespread consumer copying. During the Clinton administration, the working Group on Intellectual Property Rights felt that getting rid of the First Sale Doctrine was due to pressure from trading partners in Europe and wanted the United States to adopt a similar system.
So, it looks like the first sale doctrine is in jeopardy of extinction, even though the video rental business needs it to survive. Because of DVDs, There are ways one can protect their material from being rented, in the states, since copyright law would protect them... quite easy in fact. But that's not for me to discuss. Magicians got themselves in this mess, they should get themselves out... No spoon feeding here, do your homework. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-12 01:40, NurseRob wrote: You are making my head spin. Plus, You are making me think, and I hate that! I do not condone exposure, or ripping off the inventors who fuel our magic habit, but must admit I have purchased a few DVD's from the Café mart. I won't bore you with my defense excuses. I do think the DVD lends itself to copying and selling the original and I generally try to get my DVD's as original purchases. The rest is more of a sticky wicket. First, if you want to go "ad absurdum" what the %^#$ do we do with all this stuff if we can't get some other fool to buy it? Were there a law that said "once you buy it, you can never re-sell it" we would all need to rent storage space. Plus, I like to think that I am helping someone buy some other great magic idea, so the beat goes on. If I don't buy his junk, how will he have the money for the latest gotta-have? Am I rationalizing, or aiding the magic economy to be strong and vibrant? Must I only buy Rocky Raccoon if I can find it from a bonafide retailer, or is it OK to help this guy who wants the cash, and will never build his own RR? I say, go easy on the DVD that hits the market about a month after a new idea comes out, but full steam ahead on all else! Jim P.S. NurseRob, what does your "handle" signify?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-12 01:40, NurseRob wrote: That's because someone threatened you. Tell us who it is so that we can boycott everything they ever do.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Merenkov Elite user 413 Posts
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Magic dvds are unique in the media world, in that the information they contain is the commodity, moreso then the media it is contained on. I bought a ton of brand new VHS magic videos years ago. When these were later re-released on DVD, how many video producers offered to sell me a DVD copy for a nominal fee just to cover the costs since, you know, I already bought the "intellectual content" on the VHS? The answer is none, you basically had to pay full freight again if you wanted a DVD copy (as the market became flooded, you started to see discounts for the original VHS buyers, but still nothing close to their "cost"). And I'm not saying that they necessarily should have. But if any video producer is going to make this argument about the special content of magic videos, then be consistent and give a break to those who purchased your video in an older media format. It was actually this issue that converted me into a confirmed buyer of used DVD's only. From my point of view, you don't have to give me a big discount as a former VHS purchaser, and I don't have to buy your DVD's brand new ever again. Free men, free markets! |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts
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If I may, I would like to give my perspective as one who has released a number of items to the community, including books, tricks, utility items, and a DVD.
If you bought my DVD or one of my books, I have no problem whatsoever with you selling it. I don't have a problem with you, say, buying my DVD, finding some material you like, and selling it. Same for my books. I don't care if you sell them and continue to learn stuff you did in them. I would PREFER that you not make a copy and sell them, or that you not make a copy for your own use and sell the original. What DOES bother me is the guys who buy that item (again, say my DVD), and make more than one copy and sell/ give away those copies. I know of at least one person who bought my DVD second-hand and sold many, many copies of it. Some of my older books have been scanned and are offered for free on some of these bit torrent places. THAT does bother me, it IS illegal, and it IS unethical. Having said that, I am also aware (as should be anyone releasing any material) that this IS going to happen, and there is something to be said for the position that states, if you can't handle it, don't put it on the market. This is why I've gone to ebooks. People are going to copy them and give them away, and there's nothing I can do to stop them. But as I said, they did that with my old hardcopy books, too, and my profit margin was significantly lower with those, as I had to pay for printing, shipping, binding, etc. I had the PDF file for the hardcopy on my computer as well. So I figured, hey, I've got that file sitting on my computer whether people pay for it or not--I might as well just sell it as an ebook. It doesn't cost me any more if people buy it than if they don't. I don't have all those publishing, distributing, and shipping costs anymore. yes, it will be copied and stolen, but I make several hundred per cent more profut every time an honest person DOES py for it, so I feel it more than makes up the difference. What I don't get are the people who buy something and then give away copies to all their magic buddies. If I find something I really like and cvan use, I don't want all my friends doing it, too--I want to keep it to myself. Harry Lorayne used to put a little blurb in every issue of Apocalypse: "When you copy this, you lower its value to YOU." I think that is absolutely true.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts
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This thread got majorly sidetracked on questions of copyright law and legalalities... in my original post I was suggesting that people buy first-hand voluntarily as a way of showing support for the creators. Where and how you spend your money counts. I could probably save myself a few bucks by ordering all my magic from discount websites online, but instead I buy it from my local brick and mortar shop. Does that make me a sucker for spending a little more? Not if I like being able to visit that magic shop and want it to stick around.
Quote:
On 2009-03-06 17:28, Domino Magic wrote: You mention this like its not something that should be taken seriously. If you like his material this should disturb you. It means every single time he has something that might be worthy of release he has to have a very serious internal debate of whether or not its worth it to him to do so in spite of the lack of respect that he is shown. So far it hasn't stopped him? How do you know it hasn't? He has still released dvds sure, but how do you know he's not holding stuff back? I know of many brilliant creators who have lots of great material that they would have released if they could reasonably expect to be paid for it, but now choose not to. Maybe having less magic information available on the market is good thing? Maybe the art would be better off if we go back to the days where a guy invents a trick and takes the secret with him to his grave or passes it on only to most trusted confidant/apprentice/heir. |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Quote:
]Maybe having less magic information available on the market is good thing? Maybe the art would be better off if we go back to the days where a guy invents a trick and takes the secret with him to his grave or passes it on only to most trusted confidant/apprentice/heir. I've been saying that for years |
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-14 10:47, C. Loubard wrote: Although that's a noble idea, I don't thing it's very realistic in this information era. Also, the greatest things are usually accomplished through interaction and cooperation: people building on the ideas of others. I'm wondering, if you take that away entirely (everyone takes their secrets to their graves), how would "the art" look? (Not a rhetorical question, by the way.) That said, a little more secrecy would definitely not hurt the art. |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts
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To say that when you sell/purchase a used DVD you are stealing from the original artist is not true. Price is an issue. There are many DVDs I would like to see, but not for the usual $30-$35. I do not have unlimited funds. If I buy a used copy for $10, nothing is being stolen from the artist because otherwise I am unable/unwilling to pay full price and therefore will not. Should I forgo used DVDs out of some self-important sense that by doing so I am somehow supporting the artist?
Supporting one's local brick-and-mortar shop is a different matter. There is not much difference in price between my local shop and online websites--they're pretty much the same, and my local store even gives discounts--and so of course I buy most everything I can from my local shop. |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts
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Ray, I never said buying a used dvd was stealing, but your justification doesn't really make it any better. By the same logic its okay to pirate a dvd if it's one you never intended to buy anyway, because there is no actual lost income. Supporting the artist who creates the magic you perform is not a self-important act, its a considerate act.
When we pass a street performer, sometimes we feel compelled to put money in their hat. Usually its if the art they are performing moves us in some way. If we don't really care we just move along. that's okay too, you can't always care 100% of the time. Keep in mind that the artists need to get something out of it, to want to keep publishing their work. So if this hypothetical artist is one whose work you care about, it would behoove you to support them. |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts
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Geoff, I didn't say anything about pirating an artist's work, which would, I believe, mean making an illegal copy of, in this case, a DVD. I was talking about selling or purchasing used DVDs, which I see nothing wrong with. I, myself, have never bought a used DVD. But I have sold them and do not in any way feel that I am depriving the artist of anything by doing so.
If I have a DVD out, I would prefer that it be resold. This way my work would be more exposed, maybe to some who would might not otherwise be willing to lay out the full price. Then, should I put out another DVD and if they liked the first one, they would now be interested and willing to pay full price. They may also have friends who they tell about the DVD, who then go out and buy themselves a copy. Once again, I do not condone making illegal copies of DVDs for any purpose. |
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David Garrity Special user 525 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-14 01:45, Scott F. Guinn wrote: I agree with Scott here, but I take it even one step further. If anything I learn from a book or DVD ends up in rotation in my show, I keep the book or DVD. If I should sell the book or DVD, the routine is out. I look at owning the book or DVD as the 'permission' to present that person's routine or work and if I don't 'own' or have that 'permission' I pull the piece from the show. It's a small way for me to show support to the creators and hopefully help them get at least one more sale for their hard work!! Sincerely, David
David Garrity
www.MagicalArtist.com Follow me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DavidGarrityMagic |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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People might stop selling DVDs and buying used ones when "artists" stop releasing crap one-trick DVDs for $30. Make something people actually want to OWN (Like Homer Liwag does) and this problem will go away.
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Posted: Mar 10, 2009 07:43 pm 
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