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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-14 12:48, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why?


Because that is what his audience is going to do. Basic human psychology. They will take the dominate trait and assign it to the character. Simplicity. That is how the human mind works.

In the clip of John posted above, you are left with the impression that he is a singer doing magic tricks. That act is indeed more suited for Broadway than the Winter Carnival of Magic. But even on Broadway, it would be better if it had more magic in it.

I doubt John is happy with 2nd place, and if he is like me he is always trying to improve his act. Well I told him how to improve it, he needs to make it more magical. That's not to say he needs more magic tricks in it, he needs to make the tricks already in it appear more magical to his audience. Fancy moves with a cane might be a great trick, but it takes more than a great trick to be great "magic".

If he were to ask me, I would advise him to study Cardini. Cardini would produce a fan of cards at his finger tips, and then turn to the audience and look surprised ... he adjusted his monocle as if he didn't believe what he just saw. He'd pop his eyes a little and drop his jaw and look at the audience with an expression of "how did that happen?".

You can see the same expression with Fred Caps, all great magicians leave you wondering "how". We can't take magic into the future by ignoring our roots. And "how" is the root of all good magic. Not once in John's cane routine did I see him create a moment of "how". It's like the dancing cane is just another everyday event to him, no more magical than say a tv remote control or one of those clapper light switches. As magicians, we already know "how" so we overlook the importance of that question to a lay audience.

You know something Danny ... if you ever do figure out what I am saying, you might quit this silly hypno act of yours and return to the magic you wish you were doing. Your basic problem is you don't understand what magic is. I will even spell it out just for you: what you want to be doing is taking the "trick" out of "magic trick", leaving nothing but the "magic". It is by asking "how" that you lead your audience to the answer: MAGIC - that's how! Think about that ... there might be hope for you yet.

And John ... a book on character creation is not going to help; the character has already been created - "magician". You don't need to create a character, you just need to meet the public's expectations of what a magician is and then you can put all of your focus on style. And I mean no disrespect - I'm only being honest with you.

-JoeJoe
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Vick
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Please allow me to give one of the strongest possible examples
THIS IS MAGIC THAT MAKES YOU THINK AND FEEL!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ
This is what it is all about and what magic should be ...... ART!



JoeJoe
- I could not disagree with you more
Audiences wondering "how" is a mark of bad magic, the performer hasn't transported them, touched them or gotten any emotional investment.
THERE MUST BE EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT ON THE PART OF THE AUDIENCE

Think Cirque De Soleil, do you wonder "how" when watching them. NO, you are transported by their performance. To another place (however surreal it may be) when emotion is touched and thinking and feeling are not only encouraged but part of the experience.

What do you feel seeing Copperfield's Flying?


Why recognize magic as an art? What else is it? It is a performance art. Far too many local round the town clown performers are nothing but bunch of cheap tricks from garishly colored box wearing terrible sequin vests not caring about the audience experience but their concern is look at me and what I can do.


That is part of what has denigrated the art. Think of the lofty and respected place magic held with Houdin, Hermann, Maskelyn, Devant and Kellar.


The big box shows others do leave me cold as well, so what you can do a bunch of big tricks? What is accomplished except someone saying look at me and what I can do

I can understand you JoeJoe wondering "how", that's the way your mind works.
Others should be enchanted or mystified by the floating cigarette



and this shows more of what is wrong with more magic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seHIyR3-jvE&NR
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-14 18:39, Vick wrote:
What do you feel seeing Copperfield's Flying?


I see Copperfield going great lengths to get people to wonder "how" he is flying. He doesn't need a double-hula-hoop to create an emotional flight. He doesn't need to get into the glass box to create an emotional flight. Those things are there so you will wonder "how" he is flying.



Quote:
On 2009-03-14 18:39, Vick wrote:
I can understand you JoeJoe wondering "how", that's the way your mind works.
Others should be enchanted or mystified by the floating cigarette


Re-read what I have said - if you go to a Peter Pan play, and you can see the strings then it is not "magic". It can be an enchanting and mystifying play ... but if you don't wonder how he is flying, then it is not "magic"!

That is why Copperfield has the rings and clear box - so you will wonder "how". That is the key difference between Copperfield Flying and Peter Pan hanging from a string. With the Peter Pan play, you don't ask "how he is flying" - you see the strings, you know how he is flying. There is nothing "magic" about it.

With Peter Pan, you have to use your imagination to "pretend" he is flying. With Copperfield, he is actually flying - you don't know how he is doing it, but he is. That is what makes it "magic".






Quote:
On 2009-03-14 18:39, Vick wrote:
Far too many local round the town clown performers are nothing but bunch of cheap tricks from garishly colored box wearing terrible sequin vests not caring about the audience experience but their concern is look at me and what I can do.


If you examine what you have just said, you will realize it makes my case. That is to say ... if you deny your audience the "how did you do that" ... then you have deprived them of the magic experience. If they go to see your "magic show" and they see you in green tights hanging from a string, it is not a "magic show" - I don't care how artistic and emotional your Peter Pan play is.

You can't just jump out of a box with a flashy suit and say "ta da" and people will just assume it is magic. That is exactly what I've been saying all along. Every good magic trick has one thing common: you ask "how did he do that". You can put as much art and emotion into it as you like, but you cannot under any circumstance take out the "how did you do that" and still call it "magic".

-JoeJoe
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Dannydoyle
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A lot of words to prove you know not of what you speak. And CERTAINLY do not even know the first thing about a "performance".

Thank you JoeJoe.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Vick
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JoeJoe
Is the "How" you are discussing coming from the "Wow"?

The audinece is astonished/experiences awe saying/thinking Wow!!!!!!!
(emotion of astonishment/awe)
The next (logical) step from a blown away WOW could be wondering HOW


For me if we don't share or create the WOW, the astonishment, the emotion (heard tell of of well known, great quality performing magicians having tears in their eyes seeing "Flying") for our audiences weve done a great diservice. It's still short of what the experience should be. If the audience goes straight to How wihtout a reason to get there someting is missing


Back to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ
Are you thinking how? (fairly simple to figure out)
OR DID IT MAKE YOU THINK AND FEEL THEREBY ACHIVING ART?


If we all agreeded then the world would be a boring place
and we'd only need chocolate ice cream
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-14 20:55, Vick wrote:
Is the "How" you are discussing coming from the "Wow"?


You can't get to "wow" if they know "how". So if you want it to be "magic" then the audience cannot know "how" - that is why we protect our secrets. Every great magic trick has the same thing in common: "how do you do that"?



Quote:
Back to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ
Are you thinking how? (fairly simple to figure out)
OR DID IT MAKE YOU THINK AND FEEL THEREBY ACHIVING ART?


I could care less about anything Penn and Teller have to say. But since you insist ... you can clearly see through out this video they are playing on the fact that the audience wants to know "how" they made the flag vanish. Not that many intelligent people are fooled by the actions starting at 1:37. This is an example of trying to dress up weak magic with theatrics. They know it is weak magic, that is why they expose it. If the audience wasn't wondering "how" then they would have no emotional interest in the performance what-so-ever. As I've already said ... the emotional interest is in the "how", that is exactly what P&T are using to draw you into their story.

Their performance does not qualify as "magic" to me. It is more of a "trick" than it is "magic". Now watch Cardini perform magic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ0cnTjgcAE

-JoeJoe
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Big Daddy Cool
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And the wheels on the bus go round and round. Net/net=the people whose opinions I respect agree that the original video of the cane work was indeed a magical performance worthy of studying. 'Nuff said!
Swing hard, swing often, and we'll catch ya on the Flip-Side!
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Vick
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BDC has a good point, from here this thread is best left appreciating the work of gentleman in the first video


JoeJoe, about the only thing we agree on is Cardini was an amazing performer!
Other than that we are 180 degrees apart

Different strokes for different folks and so on and so on
and scooby doobie doobie
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G.Gilbert
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Not that the video that was posted is of any significance or importance

( all that hiphop makes him look like some dancing monkey out of step up 2 .. sorry don't mean to offend this kind of thing just doesn't appeal to me personally )

but in theory I agree with JoeJoe

I'm with you 100%

it all depends on what your going for as a PERFORMER

If this guy was trying to sell himself as a magician and this is the act I got.. I'd be a dissapointed client , don't tell me you wouldn't because you'd be full of ****!... either you'd be full of ****, or you didn't really want a magician in the first place.

theres a diffrence between eccentric dancing / hiphop / manipulation and "REAL MAGIC" .. it's not even in the same league.

all that eccentric dancing and juggling mixed with real magic is hard to pull off -
Charlie Frye can do it

but the jugglling and manip usually works against the magic...

real magic should be without effort - it should have a soul of it's own.

and as JoeJoe said, of course real magic should leave people wondering..

if it doesn't , than it's not real magic.
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O and before somebody kills me for the dancing monkey comment...

I just wanna say, I personally think it's ridiculious..

I like HipHop culture except for the whole dancing thing.

I street perform full time, and theres nothing worse than a bunch of hiphop breakdancers...

What a funny way to prove how cool and tough you are, a bunch of grown men dancing with eachother.
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No where did this guy claim to be a magician. I found it, liked it, found it amazing and decided to share it.

G. Gilbert, I gotta tell you that a lay audience has no idea what magic is. They think it is some clown pulling rabbits out of a hat. If that is what they expect to see when they buy a ticket to my show they are going to be very disappointed.

The average person never sees a magician live. To them, anything visually amazing qualifies as magic.

And dancers btw, this it is pretty sad that magicians sit in their parent's basement all day getting off with cards... I mean what a funny way to prove how cool you are - "wanna see my pass?"
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AND FURTHER if Dan & Dave Buck are considered magicians for their card juggling, then why NOT this guy? (who never claimed he was)
Swing hard, swing often, and we'll catch ya on the Flip-Side!
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-16 08:43, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
G. Gilbert, I gotta tell you that a lay audience has no idea what magic is. They think it is some clown pulling rabbits out of a hat. If that is what they expect to see when they buy a ticket to my show they are going to be very disappointed.


First off, I consider myself to be somewhere between 30-40% clown, so I take great offense at that statement as I'm sure many circus clowns would as well. Please don't make the mistake of insulting a clown, that is always a bad thing to do.

Second, people thinking a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat is a statement of how great magic used to be - the fact that we would be sitting here talking about a trick that is roughly 200 years old says a lot about the magic of 200 years ago.

And third, and this is what I've been trying to show you John - why are people expecting to see magic being disappointed by your act?

Look at your expression at 1:41 on your video. You are doing exactly what Vick says you shouldn't do - you are "showing off".

Now compare that to Cardini's expression at 1:18 ... or at 1:52 ... or nearly anywhere on Cardini's clip. Cardini is constantly amazed at what he is seeing, he doesn't give the slightest hint that he knows "how" he is doing these things - he is just as amazed at them as his audience. He didn't overlook the "how", he showcased it ... he himself is wondering "how". All these "how did I do that" moments make everything he does seem more magical than they actually are. Without them, he would just be showing off how skilled he is.

That Cardini clip was filmed in black and white over 60 years ago, and yet today's youthful YouTube audience has still given it 165 five-star ratings. That is the type of magic people will still be talking about 200 years from now!

Again, no disrespect ... as great as your dancing cane is, there is room for improvement. Perhaps the problem is not that today's audience doesn't know what magic is ... perhaps today's magicians don't know what magic is?

-JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-15 08:54, G.Gilbert wrote:
it all depends on what your going for as a PERFORMER

If this guy was trying to sell himself as a magician and this is the act I got.. I'd be a dissapointed client


Exactly. If you want to be a singer or a dancer, you can disregard everything I've said. But if you want to be a magician ... you should look, act, and talk like you are a magician.

-JoeJoe
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Big Daddy Cool
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Quote:
On 2009-03-16 09:22, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-03-16 08:43, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
G. Gilbert, I gotta tell you that a lay audience has no idea what magic is. They think it is some clown pulling rabbits out of a hat. If that is what they expect to see when they buy a ticket to my show they are going to be very disappointed.


First off, I consider myself to be somewhere between 30-40% clown, so I take great offense at that statement as I'm sure many circus clowns would as well. Please don't make the mistake of insulting a clown, that is always a bad thing to do.


I went to clown college JoeJoe. Don't even pretend that you don't know what I am talking about

Quote:
Second, people thinking a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat is a statement of how great magic used to be - the fact that we would be sitting here talking about a trick that is roughly 200 years old says a lot about the magic of 200 years ago.


I didn't say anything about 200 undred years ago. I'm referring to the Ham & Eggers of today, Charley

Quote:
And third, and this is what I've been trying to show you John - why are people expecting to see magic being disappointed by your act?


What makes you think they are? My audiences leave satisfied because I've fed them more than cotton candy. My guests get steak and potatoes and a hearty slice of cheesecake. Most magicians only feed their audiences a meaningless string of special effects equatable to cotton candy. It is very presumptuous to assume that my audiences are disappointed.

Quote:
Look at your expression at 1:41 on your video. You are doing exactly what Vick says you shouldn't do - you are "showing off".


Because my character shows off you knuckle-head! Big Daddy Cool is the killer - the one who makes the magic happen and he likes for people to know it happens under his power! Do you understand any principles of theatrical motivation?

Quote:
Now compare that to Cardini's expression at 1:18 ... or at 1:52 ... or nearly anywhere on Cardini's clip. Cardini is constantly amazed at what he is seeing, he doesn't give the slightest hint that he knows "how" he is doing these things - he is just as amazed at them as his audience. He didn't overlook the "how", he showcased it ... he himself is wondering "how". All these "how did I do that" moments make everything he does seem more magical than they actually are. Without them, he would just be showing off how skilled he is.


Because he is the victim, not the killer. Magic happens TO Cardini not becuase he wills it. Again, completely different character motivation.

Quote:
That Cardini clip was filmed in black and white over 60 years ago, and yet today's youthful YouTube audience has still given it 165 five-star ratings. That is the type of magic people will still be talking about 200 years from now!


You are 100% correct. Wow I agree with you?

Quote:
Again, no disrespect ... as great as your dancing cane is, there is room for improvement.


Did I claim superiority? I never said mine was the best JoeJoe. Others have done that for me. I HAVE made improvements to the cane by understanding it's theatrical purpose in context to my character and story. Not to mention creating several ORIGINAL handlings which have been copied and improved upon by others.

And while we are critiquing - I might note that on your video you are doing your clownish cane and people are walking right by without stopping. You claim to be doing something amazing, yet you have to practically beg some children to stop. This has nothing to do with the magic, it has to do with YOU.

Now I am bragging: I don't need a trick to draw an audience. Proof? Try producing and MCing a variety show in a Mall for 3 years. Within 10 seconds of my introduction a crowd forms. Within a minute I can usually have a crowd of 200+ ready to see the show. This before 1 trick. Based only on the power of my character's personality.

Quote:
Perhaps the problem is not that today's audience doesn't know what magic is ... perhaps today's magicians don't know what magic is?

-JoeJoe


Perhaps you need to get out more.
Swing hard, swing often, and we'll catch ya on the Flip-Side!
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Big Daddy Cool
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Oh, and that video is almost 3 years old now. I took 1st in points here but the act was bumped to second because 2 boneheaded judges thought it was a "good variety act" but "it isn't a good representation of what magic should be" - sounds like you. I won on points.

Went on to win 1st at Magi-Fest and then to the Gold Medal Finals at IBM. Not too shabby.

And has the routine stayed the same? Nope! It evoles and changes over time as I improve...
Swing hard, swing often, and we'll catch ya on the Flip-Side!
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-16 12:21, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Quote:
And third, and this is what I've been trying to show you John - why are people expecting to see magic being disappointed by your act?


What makes you think they are?


Because you told George that if they were expecting magic they would be disappointed.

Quote:
On 2009-03-16 08:43, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
G. Gilbert, I gotta tell you that a lay audience has no idea what magic is. They think it is some clown pulling rabbits out of a hat. If that is what they expect to see when they buy a ticket to my show they are going to be very disappointed.


News flash: people think of magicians as men wearing tail coats pulling rabbits out of their top hat. That is their "expectation" of a magician. I try to meet their expectations. You prefer to change their expectations. And in doing so, you lose the character of "magician".

Which is, as I've said all along ... fine if you are not trying to be a magician.



Quote:
Because my character shows off you knuckle-head! Big Daddy Cool is the killer - the one who makes the magic happen and he likes for people to know it happens under his power! Do you understand any principles of theatrical motivation?


I understand the principles of being a magician - you are not trying to be a magician, you are trying to be a show off.

What I am saying is you shouldn't be telling the people that want to be magicians that this style of "showing off" is more magical than the things you see David Copperfield doing, as you implied in your first post. IT IS NOT! It is LESS magical!

It has nothing to do with you, your character, your style, quit trying to turn this into something personal because it is not. It's like we're both saying the exact same things, but you keep trying to defend yourself like I don't know what I'm talking about. I know exactly what I'm talking about - this is after all, a forum for MAGICIANS - not swing singing gangster "killer" hip-hop dancers that happen to do magic tricks.

-JoeJoe
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2009-03-16 12:39, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
I took 1st in points here but the act was bumped to second because 2 boneheaded judges thought it was a "good variety act" but "it isn't a good representation of what magic should be" - sounds like you. I won on points.


Why am I not surprised that I am not the only one that feels this way? They aren't "boneheads" John ... they are "magicians". You do indeed have a great variety act ... but you don't have "magic act".

I'm sure I could go to a juggling convention and find a juggler that could score more points juggling than I could score on magic. Does that make the juggler a better "magician" than me? NO! Maybe a better act than me ... but not a better "magician".

I am about the "magic". I am a "magician".

-JoeJoe
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Big Daddy Cool
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Fine you are right and I am wrong.

So is Vick.
So is Eugene Burger
So is Penn & Teller
So is Jeff McBride
So is Tobias Beckwith
So is Ken Weber
So is Robert Neale
So is Mark Kalin...

And the list goes on and on...
Swing hard, swing often, and we'll catch ya on the Flip-Side!
John Pyka
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