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Harry Lorayne
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Thanks for clearing that up, Bande. But it seems to me that you're a new kid on the block. If not, if I'm wrong, I apologize. You see, my name has been known in magic since my first book in 1962, probably before you were born. Now, I'm not saying that to brag, I'm saying it to let you know that MOST PEOPLE IN MAGIC know what kind of stuff I teach, they KNOW the level of expertise necessary to learn/perform my stuff. (Interestingly enough, many "beginners" have told me that my DVDs, and my books, of course, STARTED THEM IN MAGIC.) So, your advice, as far as I'm concerned, falls into the "who asked you" category. Nothing new with me.

I would, incidentally, love for you to give me just one example as to when my teaching was "not clear enough". That's interesting, since the vast majority always tell me that I'm probably the best teacher/writer in magic. Get this straight - I DON'T SAY THAT; OTHERS DO. Okay? Oh, and "too fast"? There's a rewind or pause option on all DVD players. Oh, and you weren't only giving your "review" - which, IN MY OPINION, helps nobody, but you were judging my character (read "condescending manner." Give an example, please. Anyway, I've said this so often, to paraphrase Voltaire, I will fight to the death for your right to your opinion - I assume you give me the same right. And in my opinion your opinion was/is gratuitous, meaningless, WRONG.

Please, assuage my curiosity, let us all know how long you've been involved in magic. It is, incidentally, never a surprise when people who state things about me that I disagree with think that there's "a downside to my tone" when I hit back which, if it's okay with you, I will always do. Just curious about how long you've been in magic. But it is kind of important. See, that will tell us all how much attention to give to your opinions. No? All the best - HARRY LORAYNE (No pseudonom, that's ME - I have no need to hide my identity.)
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Bande
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This all seems a but silly to me, but I will try to answer your questions/statements as best I can in the order asked.

1. "But it seems to me that you're a new kid on the block. If not, if I'm wrong, I apologize. You see, my name has been known in magic since my first book in 1962, probably before you were born."

No, I am not a new kid on the block, and no your book did not come out before I was born. However, more importantly, I do not think being a new kid on the block would invalidate someone's opinion. Sometimes experience makes reviewers better as they have more to compare it to on the other hand sometimes experience leads to a more jaded point of view. Dimissing someone's opinion because you decide they do not have the requisite experience is the same condescending attitude I object to in your videos.

2. "I'm saying it to let you know that MOST PEOPLE IN MAGIC know what kind of stuff I teach, they KNOW the level of expertise necessary to learn/perform my stuff." I think this is unlikely to be true. I think there are a large number of people (especially younger magicians) who have no idea who you are, and are unlikely to know the level of expertise neccessary to perform your material. You can dismiss these people as you seem to in your first paragraph, but that does not mean they are not "PEOPLE IN MAGIC." You can of course try to qualify your statement by meaning "people who's opinion Harry cares about" but that seems tautological. Do lots of people in magic know who you are? Yes, partly because you have been around or a long time, partly because you put out some quality material and partly because you work hard at self-promotion. Do most people know you are in magic? Not so sure. Do most people know the level of expertise to perform your material? I doubt it, though obviously just an opinion and not an easy thing to prove either way.

3. "Interestingly enough, many "beginners" have told me that my DVDs, and my books, of course, STARTED THEM IN MAGIC." This would seem to imply that your think your material is for beginners, but then earlier you state, "Who ever said that my DVDs were "for real beginners"? They are NOT."

4. "So, your advice, as far as I'm concerned, falls into the "who asked you" category." The title of this thread is, "Lorayne DVD's any good?" The person who asked me was cardfreax. That actually is the point of the Café -- it is a place for fellow magicians to share their experiences/opinions/expertise etc. I have found it very helpful, and try to contribute where I can.

5. " I would ... love for you to give me just one example as to when my teaching was "not clear enough." There are many instances, but you ask for one. I found the Halo Cut to be very confusing -- while there is a "super slo mo" feature it would have been far more useful (at least for me and a few others)to have broken the moves into segments. After spending a lot of time with the move, I have it down and really like it -- so was it worth it? Yes. Was it well taught? Not really.

6. "That's interesting, since the vast majority always tell me that I'm probably the best teacher/writer in magic." The vast majority? Again, while you are a good teacher I know many people that would disagree with the statement that you are "the best." Do some people think you are the best? Probably.

7. "Oh, and you weren't only giving your "review" - which, IN MY OPINION, helps nobody, but you were judging my character (read "condescending manner. Give an example, please." I would submit your response to me is littered with examples. In fact, just read the sentence above. Dismissing my opinion as a "new kid on the block" is condescending. Pretending to ask my permission "if it's OK with you" is a condescending tone. Dismissing my opinion as gratuitous, meaningless etc. for no reason given other than you think I may be new to magic. Dismissing my comment that the instruction was too fast by reminding me there is a rewind button on a DVD is condescending. And yes, I was giving a review -- my review contained my perception of your tone as it is an important element in my opinion.

8. "Please, assuage my curiosity, let us all know how long you've been involved in magic.

I can assuage your curiosity -- I have been performing magic in a limited way for about 20 years, a bit more seriously the last 4 years and even more seriously the last 2 years as my scheduled has allowed it. As stated above, I do not think that makes my opinions more or less valid, but you asked.

9. "It is, incidentally, never a surprise when people who state things about me that I disagree with think that there's "a downside to my tone" when I hit back which, if it's okay with you, I will always do."

You have this completely backwards. I did not express my opinion, then have you disagree and then think there was a downside to your tone. I expressed my opinion that you are condescending at times on your DVDs, you disliked that and are now hitting back. I think people reading your responses to me can easily understand the tone they are likely to experience on your DVDs.

10. "Curious about how long you've been in magic. But it is kind of important. See, that will tell us all how much attention to give to your opinions. No?" Well, no. But you are really obsessed with this point, so I answered it above.

11. "All the best - HARRY LORAYNE (No pseudonom, that's ME - I have no need to hide my identity.)"

I do not think being disingenuous is a positive trait. Again, it is only a tone, but one I find (and others may as well) find off putting. Why would you assume I have something to hide? If you want my name, e-mail, mailing address, phone number -- just PM me.

In summary, I stand by my review and opinions. Others will read it and make their own judgements. I understand that you do not like being criticized (and not many people do), but perhaps you should/could spend a small amount of the effort you expend here for a little introspection and humility. You acknowledge that others have felt similarly about your tone/style so perhaps there is some merit to their opinions.
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2009-03-26 23:43, JohnWells wrote:
I am currently buying up everything of Harry's I can get my hands on.


Oh great -- there goes Harry's two year supply of underwear!

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf

--Grandpa Chet
mormonyoyoman
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When will people learn that if you hit Harry Lorayne, he'll hit back? Like some friends of mine, he grew up in a time and place that grew folks up as scrappers or quitters. Harry's never been a quitter, from what I've seen.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf

--Grandpa Chet
NYCJoePitt
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Quote:
On 2009-03-28 00:09, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-03-26 23:43, JohnWells wrote:
I am currently buying up everything of Harry's I can get my hands on.


Oh great -- there goes Harry's two year supply of underwear!

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet


...after Bande's reply, now looking for MY FLAMEPROOF underwear as the battle begins!

:)
Harry Lorayne
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There's no battle, guys. That last post of Bande's is the MOST CONDESCENDING thing I've read in a long time, and he accuses me of being condescending. You know, it's so TYPICAL. There's no way I'll take the time to answer that long condescending post except to state emphatically, HE'S SO D@MN WRONG it "ain't" funny. I asked about how long he'd been in magic; he, sort of, answered that. Now I'd ask (not that I really care, but others may) what the h@ll has he conhtributed to magic?
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Harry Lorayne
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One more thing I'd like to say - or repeat, I've said it so often. And I know people like Bande will call it condescending - so be it. My answer to Cardfreax, had I taken the time to answer originally, would have been - "If you have to ask, don't buy it."
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
IanKendall
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I thought Bende's post was very reasoned and well written. He answered all the questions in an articulate manner, without resorting to shouting or insults.

Take care, Ian
ted french
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Well Harry I think the fact that he owns some of YOUR products then he has contributed something to you and the greater good of magic. I hate the idea that just because a person chooses not to release their material they are not making contributions. I doubt you care but you kinda come off like a person who thinks your better than everybody else. I cant speak directly about your material because honestly I have never seen someone use one of your effects in a performance, I'm sure it's great stuff but I am unfamiliar. Maybe if I was more familiar with your stuff I would have a different opinion. I have "How to develop a super powerful memory" and I found it very helpful. You have some great ideas in that book.
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Harry Lorayne
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Ian: Why am I not surprised at your (silly) opinion?

Ted: Forgive me, I don't mean to be condescending, nor do I wish to put you down (although you don't seem to mind putting me down), but you really have no idea as to what you're talking about. You really don't. "He refuses to release material"?! You must be joking, right? I "think I'm better than anyone else"??? Show me where I say or imply that. That's your opinion; please stop putting your stupid words into my mouth. And, of course, your opinion must be CURRENT because you mention my very first book, which I wrote in 1954 and was published in 1956. You really are right up there, current as all get out. Boy, you really are knowledgeable - about me, anyway - really have the right to make statements about me that make no d@mn sense. Oh, and perhaps, just my opinion, it'd be good if you did became familiar with my material before you stated your remarkable opinions. Which, of course, you're entitled to. As am I, and as I've said many times before, IN MY OPINION, your opinion, your post (a wonderful example of 'who the h@ll asked you') SUCKS. Now don't misunderstand, Ted, you keep stating your opinions publicly, and I will continue to respond, to prove how ridiculous they are. Deal?
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
IanKendall
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Harry, why am I not surpised at your reply...

Take care, Ian
ted french
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Harry, I'm sure you were a god in the 50's and 60's you know during the days of Pat Boone, sock hops, malt shops and many other really cool radical trends. I'm sure you were a real swinging cat. Honestly and without the sarcasm you were probably a freakin bad a** during your day. The legacy you have now for myself and many other younger folk that did not grow up with your magic. Is the legacy of someone that is an old man who hangs out on the internet checking the search engine to see if your name has been typed. Learn some humility there's still time it's never too late. I'm sorry you feel I'm stupid if you were really the card magic god I've been told you were you wouldnt even waste your time with a stupid punk like me.
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Harry Lorayne
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Ted French: How right you are - I've made you feel like a "bigger" person by responding to you for the last time. It does, however seem as if you're the one "hanging around" to see where you can spout your silliness. I really do think that you and Ian are the Abbott and Costello of our time. You are both so "right on." Oh, and Ted, your opinion still SUCKS, even though you're SO YOUNG. Or is it BECAUSE you're so young? I don't know; just trying to stay with you here, since you're the one who brought up age. I just checked, and - my response to you above is still RIGHT ON; you've not made me change my mind in the slightest. Keep up your lovely work.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
ted french
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Ladies and Gentlemen... Harry Lorayne. Harry are you familiar with the Lorayne game?
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Douglas Lippert
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Quote:
On 2009-03-28 17:43, Harry Lorayne wrote:
That's your opinion; please stop putting your stupid words into my mouth.


Some people start to get cranky in their old age. But, I'm sure Mr. Lorayne means well.

Doug
Douglas Lippert
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IanKendall
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I'm getting that Oscar Wilde vibe again...

Off to bed.

Take care, Ian
edh
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Harry, please take the time to read this article. Does it sound familiar to you. It may just give you some insight.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narciss....../DS00652

Quote:
When will people learn that if you hit Harry Lorayne, he'll hit back? Like some friends of mine, he grew up in a time and place that grew folks up as scrappers or quitters. Harry's never been a quitter, from what I've seen.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet


Since when does an opinion qualify as "hitting". Do you read the post? If you harry's post it he who starts with the cussing and insults.

Don't be an apologist for harry.
Magic is a vanishing art.
ted french
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EDH, that's funny.
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edh
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Than you Ted. I'm glad you enjoyed that. Smile
Magic is a vanishing art.
Ogre1234
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Ah yes. These comments from Mr. Loyrane reminds me of the old days when my former mentor suggested that I stay away from Harry Lorayne. Mess with his ego, and well... ouch!
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