|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2 | ||||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
At the WMS Mark Mason came with a new concept in gravity Flipper coins. There are two magnetic coin one is a gravity flipper and the other one is a magnetic coin. The fliper only opens when it is next to the other coin (positive polarity) and then naturally can be kept open. Then when the flipper is either tossed or simply closed it cannot open by itself and can therefore be given for inspection.
Mark was presenting it in the following way for strolling performers Bring a silk out and ask two spectators to hold its corners (Silent Mora/Dai Vernon style) Show two coins (the magnetic and the flipper) and place them (the open Flipper) on to the silk. Pinch the silk from underneath and release it: this makes the visible coins (open flipper) jump up and one of them disappear in mid air. The magician showing that the other one passed right through the silk like an open expansion of texture. Both coins are immediately given for inspection and the hands shown to be otherwise empty. Not one of the magicians at the WMS did detect the gimmick let alone figured out the solution. Very impressive and opening a large avenue to creative people for many adaptations of other routines or the creation of new ones. It is to this day the best flipper for it allows to do "in the spectator's hand" effects, leaving the coin in their hand after the effect. Other gaffed coins cannot, without prejudice, be ranked by the difference in quality: most of them are extremely good. Thus collateral criteria must be used. As a second one I would rank Auke Van Dokkum in Holland and Xavier Dumont in France because they create the coins that you want without letting you wait for ages just before answering you, let alone making them. Even though and this is not less important to American magicians, they will do coins for any nationality (Japanese, French, German, Austrian, Italian, Spanish...) in the same quality as the Todd Lassen ones that people generally refer to. Another advantage in favor of Xavier Dumont is that he is recreating, in the proper size, older coins with the patina some with holes, some without holes with their shell. Thus Japanese magicians or European (but actually American as well) can do effects with old coins which people generally don't know(as they don't know the old foreign coins that Todd is smartly collecting) but in their nationality (American copper coin for American magicians, etc...): our double facer doesn't have to be an American silver coin and a copper foreign coin, it can be American on both sides (replication of a gold coin in copper for the other side for example). Our Hole coin doesn't have to be Chinese any more... Check their site and see what David Roth is saying about Xavier Dumont's coins (just for you to be sure that I'm not nationally biased). The third best is, IMHO, Jamie Schoolcraft and Todd Lassen but Jamie is overworked with his standard products and doesn't have the time to do special orders and Todd, outside his circle of loyal friends, is treating his customers with contempt (and this doesn't concern only me) because he has more demand than he can handle. Jamie also has more orders than he can supply but at least he is very kind and is organized to keep you gracefully posted of what's happening. The other slightly lower end products are making a lot of efforts to produce very good quality material and frankly, the quality coins that are referred to above are not necessary to do totally deceptive effects. It just feels nice for the magician and creates a curiosity interest over the precious coins with the spectator: it doesn't even cross the minds of lay people that we could be "stupid" enough or "allowed" to damage precious coins. They look at the coins to learn about them more than to check if they could be gaffed (which they have no notion that it could even exist). The fact that we are passionate about high quality coins is not what makes the magic. So we can do very deceptive routine with a Johnson shell or a Tango flipper and I would always prefer a magician doing a great routine with a more common set to a magician trying to compensate for mediocre magic with the price of his toys.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
The Wizard of Hearts Veteran user Tulsa, Oklahoma 323 Posts |
If the new Mason offering only opens when next to its magnetic coin, it shouldn't be considered a "gravity" flipper, should it? As gravity no longer plays a part in opening, it should be called a Magnetic Flipper--although why you'd choose to manipulate an additional coin just to get the flipper to open is beyond me. The coin can't withstand scrutiny for long and besides, who would hand out a dirty coin for inspection with the risk the spectator will accidently drop it, thus turning your investment into a piece of scrap metal?
You claim that none of the magicians at WMS detected the gimmick or sussed the routine. Why Lawrence, Mark Mason ought to have you writing ad copy! "It is to this day the best flipper for it allows to do "in the spectator's hand" effects, leaving the coin in their hand after the effect." Excuse me, but Isn't that a selling point for the original (non-gravity) flipper coins? And hey, they don't need to be unlocked during the routine by close proximity to a "key" coin. You know what? I'll bet they're cheaper, too. Of course if you don't want to use the key coin, you could put a neodymium magnet into a thumb or finger tip and use that to key open the flipper. Or some form of magnetic hold out secreted on your person could also be used to pry the little thing open--those neodymium magnets are so strong, you could literally embed one in your tie and then just brush the coin up against the tie's sweet spot to open. ..or just use a regular, properly-banded, and properly-tensioned flipper and forget the magnets altogether. That way, if you accidently drop the flap, you can shake it out directly, without resorting to more magnetic unlocking. By the way, when you immediately hand out the coins for examination, you're not suggesting that both coins (the Magnetic flipper and the Magnetic key) are handed to the same spectator, are you? I didn't think so. IMHO, I think what we have here is another silver-plated thumb tip. |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Obviously from what you are stating, you have not seen Mark Mason's new Flipper: when it's near the other coin it does open by gravity.
I respect you for supporting your friend Todd Lassen. I think that loyalty to friends is a very high quality, but Todd is not under attack and he has more order than his high quality craft can deliver, which enables him to maintain his prices, which in turn (adding a pinch of American nationalism) artificially supports the feeling that he is doing better coins than anybody else. Making yourself rare, when you succeed not being forgotten, is a very strong image marketing tool. I have no problem with that (I have kids in the three nationalities: American, Dutch and French). Bashing, even indirectly, the competition is another story. I have no personal link with Mark Mason, but I like keeping my "freedom of speech" when I see a good product. You may have asked in what coin types his sets are available. This could have been more embarrassing as I didn't see (as yet) for example Walking Liberty silver coins in this set. Mark is taking over the business of Bob Swadling in a couple of months and Bob (apart from the fact that he invented the Flipper coin) is, after the Dutch Anverdi, one of the great geniuses when it comes to the use of magnets in coin magic. Anybody who knows his Okito box would support this claim. A great brain with a great salesman to market its invention can only be good for the magicians community.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
The Wizard of Hearts Veteran user Tulsa, Oklahoma 323 Posts |
Let me reiterate, Lawrence: IMHO, I believe Mark Mason's new Magnetic Flipper is nothing more that a silver plated thumb tip. I don't need to see it to understand its workings as you've tipped that very well in your description. The reason I say it's a SPTT is because it offers nothing NEW in the way of performance--other than the magnetic locking feature--and its use is actually _hindered_ by the requirement that the unlocking coin needs to be in (close?) proximity in order for the flipper to be opened. Thus, in order for me to use the MF (Magnetic Flipper) in say, a coins across routine, I must choreograph not only the moves and position of the flipper coin, but I must also take into account its "activator" coin's position (and moves) as well, thereby making each routine twice as complex right out of the starting gate! And for what? So I can hand the coin out for examination? I can do that already with a regular flipper and some basic sleight of hand. But, anyway, I'm not in the habit of handing my props out for inspection, so why will this coin make my Schoolcraft Gravity Flipper obsolete? Can you answer me that, Lawrence?
A Silver Plated Thumb Tip is what this is, and what it shall always be. It's one for the "collector". Like a silver and steel Tenyo trick--mechanically clever, but destined only for the shelf; to be pulled out and displayed, like Abbott's "Hole in One", whenever the magicalumpen are over for tea. What I don't understand, Lawrence, is how you can contradict yourself within the same sentence: "I think that loyalty to friends is a very high quality, but Todd is not under attack and he has more order than his high quality craft can deliver, which enables him to maintain his prices, which in turn (adding a pinch of American nationalism) artificially supports the feeling that he is doing better coins than anybody else." You tell me Todd's not under attack and then you accuse him of artificially supporting the feeling that he is doing better coins than anybody else. AND, to top it all off, you're acting like American nationalism is a bad thing. You've lost me there. Do I have to remind you that American nationalism saved your country's bacon not once, but twice in the last century? You can continue keeping your "freedom of speech", just remember who it was got it back for you when you lost it. |
|||||||||
runawayjag Inner circle 1085 Posts |
Actually, Bob Swadling's magnetic coin has been around as "Double Deception" since way back when Todd & Jamie were probably in high school. His was the first relatively practical solution to opening the flipper coin without having to shake it and shake it. I'm sure it was his approach, not the actual mechanics, that led to the evolution of the gravity flipper which does the same thing without the need for the magnet. In Dean's Triangle, the coin kind of took a slight step backward as the gravity flipper in that coin has a magnet to hold another coin under a surface, which is precisely what Double Deception did.
So, Lawrence is greatly mistaken, in that Mark Mason did not "create" a new coin. More specifically to Lawrence's remark, Mark in now ay "came out with a new concept in Gravity flippers." He might be marketing it with Swadling's blessings but he did not create it. One thing that Bob's coin could do that none of the present day coins can do is that it could close without being touched and that made for a really miraculous penetration. It required his Power Pack, but it was a completely hands off penetration of a coin through a card case into a clear glass. With the Power Pack, the coin does not need to be propelled into the air by either the magician or any other means in order to close. And, finally, Swadling's coin does NOT open by gravity. It is the polarity of the other magnetic coin that PUSHES the insert out. Then, your fingers fold it open. That is why it is able to close itself untouched. If you simply lift the shell up, the coin will snap shut. If you simply lift the shell up on a gravity flipper, the insert will remain hanging. I think they have different applications. I have had Schoolcraft flippers and Lassen flippers. My preference is Todd's work which seems to be more consistent. I've had some great coins from Jamie and some not-so-great workmanship from him. I've had consistently great stuff from Todd. It's a fine line, but that's my preference. Personally, I think they're all a little too expensive, but then I can't say that I am informed as to the labor involved in making a coin, so I could be wrong. I do know that magicians, including me, seem to be willing to pay the price. Finally, the statement that "not one of the magicians at WMS did detect the gimmick let alone figured out the solution" must either be a gross exaggeration or the quality of informed magicians attending WMS is far lower than I thought. |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Runawayjag is absolutely 100% right.
The Wizard of Hearts is wrong: I do not accuse Todd of artificially supporting the feeling that he is doing better coins than anybody else. Todd succeeded creating his image of quality craftman. You are the one adding the adverb "artificially" to my statement that you quote in your passionated post. I think that Todd is right to try and lead the market for the protection of his business but seeing through an intelligent marketing is not accusing someone. Now as far as history is concerned, you should review American history and you will find out that there would be no American independance if the French had not captured the British Army and British fleet at Yorktown where George Washington was not even present. You would also find out that only 10% deposit was done for the Louisiana deal and that the reest was never paid (mind you it's only a shade more than one third of the American territory) If you are interested in the history of first world war you should not make statements that would ridicule you about Americans saving the skin of the French in the first world war. And if you are at reviewing the second world war I'm encouraging you to read As he saw it by the son of President Roosevelt: it was not about saving the French but about dismantling their empire. The American administration kept two ambassadors to the French collaborating with the nazi: no less than Admiral Leahy and Robert Murphy. They invaded the French colonies first and the Casablanca convention called the planned Overlord operation not "Freeing France" but "Invading France". I'm grateful to the young G.Is who put their live at stake and who, for a lot of them gave it for freeing France not for the administrations who cynically sent the American youth at risk for the (successful until a recent time) colonization of western Europe. In November last Europe led by its (then) French president saved the American economy from the crisis which was threatening to bankrupt its allies as it had already bankrupted some its main financial institutions and was under way to do more. Why do you think that President OBAMA is visiting to celebrate D-Day in France? Maybe he knows better than you who the true allies of United States have been historically (not submissive friends but true friends: maybe you remember the Iraki question?) As a last points some of own kids are Americans and it's not an offense to speak freely about either the American nationalism, or the French nationalism. It is just realistic when it is done factually and without hate. I still congratulate you more for your loyalty to Todd Lassen than for your knowledge of international history.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
The Wizard of Hearts Veteran user Tulsa, Oklahoma 323 Posts |
Lawrence O, YOU are the one who is wrong.
Here's why: take a gander at your post, Posted: Mar 23, 2009 2:06pm. Right there you use (and as I accurately quoted) the word "artificially". YOU added the adverb, not me. As far as your history, mon ami, believe what you will, this forum is not the place to argue alternate-reality versions of history. Getting back to the topic at hand, gravity flippers have proven themselves over countless numbers of performances. So why, other than to "have one of everything" would you feel the need to purchase one of JB's magnetic flippers? I'll admit Mark Mason is one heck of a salesman and I have quite a number of their other products, but do we really need a magnetic flipper? No. |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Back to the topic, you are asking "do we really need a magnetic flipper?" and answer "No" and, even if Mark's demonstration impressed me, I'm inclined to agree with you but
I received a PM from Curtis Kam on several subject and he mentioned: "... I read your post on the magnetic flipper that Mark Mason was selling, and if you haven't been told yet, I think you should know that Bob Swadling created the magnetic flipper, in fact, it may have been the first version he sold. There is an old videotape of his work in which he shows how the gaff works." As usual Curtis was right. It's a fact that I didn't know and found out that it's called Double Deception by Bob Swadling. If the man who invented the Flipper thought he should push his own invention that far before releasing it, maybe you and I and a few others are missing something. What I like in the Gravity Flipper is the versatility. Maybe the Swadling version is not as restrictive as I got the feeling it was. Maybe I should have done what I usually do: consider what new magic possibilities the magnetic flipper adds besides being able to hand it out (which for me isn't a breakthrough as it wasn't a problem). Let's look at it proactively.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
mitchmarkl New user 77 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-04-01 05:27, Lawrence O wrote: |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
As a personal slope I do like getting towards versatility. Now there hasn't been much research done with magnetic flippers because the market availability has been smaller. I do accept that it "will force you to choreograph extra moves" but naturally cannot accept "extra moves to achieve the same results you would have with a Gravity Flipper" which seems to me to be a prejudice.
We cannot tell what clever young or older guys would come out with and decide, in advance, that it would "achieve the same results you would have with a Gravity Flipper". The purpose of research is to come out with different effects. Following this kind of thinking, we could have said that the Flipper forced us "to choreograph extra moves to achieve the same results you would have with" a shell. Actually some people claim the same about the shell versus an extra coin. Initially it might have been true but over the time it became false. Despite my preference for the versatility (and better sound) offered by an extra coin, I ended up buying Flipper coins. Let's keep an open mind and keep thinking in terms of audiences' entertainment.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Etienne my friend, I completely agree and appreciate your sober views in this discussion. Always a tutelage on the workings of magic from a variety of directions and history.
Certainly gaff coins are evolving like everything else and that movement is based as you say on what clever folks might take us further than we know. Actually this has happened time and time again but oftentimes we are thinking we have reached the summit and the best of the best but the best is always yet to come, is that not true enough? I don't use gaffs a lot but they are brilliant devices, as brilliant as a plane that helps us to do the thing we dream of most in the power of flight. They encourage us to dream, that is their magic...And once we do we begin to learn even more and how to apply it to what we do in all of this. Everything we come up with get's adapted to us because it is of us, sometimes roughly and sometimes very smoothly. I happen to like the extra-coin you speak of too but sometimes there can be better mousetraps and we should appreciate it all and use it accordingly as each are building blocks foward along the initial direction and same way. Truly the beginning should always recognize the various ends as itself maturing along the way. It's all good.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Wise comments, Marion.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
Bungee Regular user 160 Posts |
My Schoolcraft Walking lib and soft Morgan Flipper are pieces of art.
|
|||||||||
Antares New user Newcastle 22 Posts |
I just recently bought my first Schoolcraft gravity flipper coin. Its a Walking Liberty and the workmanship is unbelievable. The gaff is practically undetectable. and the flipping action is smooth and silent.
I bought it second hand but in mint condition, to the point that I think it had never been used. The e...c must have perished in the interim so I had an unfortunate snapping incident. This happened during a practice session so no embarrassment but I must say that the e....c still remained in place on one side and I was actually still able to flip it closed. Its possible that even in real performance environment, I might have been able to cover the breakage. The back-up service was also fantastic from Jamie (and everyone else here in this forum). Even though I bought the coin from someone else, Jamie was happy to walk me through the repair process. I don't own any of the other manufacturers coins yet but my first experience of the high end suppliers has been very,very good.
Close-up Magic Cabinet Makers.
Antaresmagic.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Lassen, JB, and Schoolcraft Gravity Flippers(more feedback) (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2 |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.09 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |