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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Wow, Ray. You really don't get it at all, do you?
Let's go to a Bar mitzvah on Long Island. You do the Dove pan or the change bag and see how far you get. Other than children and retarded people - They fool NO ONE. They are over done, over exposed, and non-deceptive. Plus, what can you do with a change bag that can't be done more deceptively using something that looks like something on earth. As to your "look it up in the catalog" line, that proves you don't know your history. A change bag is a gimmicked collection bag as used in churches in the 1800's. So, to people, this was as normal as, say, a zip lock bag or a ball cap. Likewise, the dove pan looked like a chaffing dish. The application of the top was justified by the presence of fire. Of course, these items do not exist in the real world today. Magic is the only art I know of that revels in the fact it is unabashedly out of step with the times. No wonder we are depicted in the media as clowns and buffoons. Unless you are doing an 19th Century recreation magic show with these props, you are not an artist - you are unaware. As to Master of Illusion - yes, it's a title. But when I was 16, I knew I didn't have the chops. The producer who cast these kids either 1) doesn't care or 2) is an idiot or 3) is blind. But hey, why should we care about how our art is represented when we can have our 15 minutes at any cost. Those Phenomenon guys sure hit the big time!!!! Brad |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-23 00:41, truthteller wrote: I'm the magic director for Walt Disney Imagineering, was the Magic Director for Caesars Magical Empire and have designed magic for dozens of film and television shows. I have a track record that hundreds of people count on so I'm not sure who to believe... you or the ones who hire me. Maybe I don't get it and maybe they just pay me to laugh at me... lol... not a bad job I guess! Quote:
Let's go to a Bar mitzvah on Long Island. You do the Dove pan or the change bag and see how far you get. Other than children and retarded people - They fool NO ONE. I've done it before as a lecture device when I was teaching all the magicians at Caesars Palace. I'll take an effect, show them how it's done then turn right around and fool them with it. Is it easy? Not at all, but a great test of ability. Quote:
They are over done, over exposed, and non-deceptive. Plus, what can you do with a change bag that can't be done more deceptively using something that looks like something on earth. Maybe it's over done where you are for Bar mitzvahs but then again, maybe you have a relatively small sample of the world's population. Have you looked at the majority of magical apparatus recently? It is unique by nature. Is it right? Not for me but not unusual and certainly "accepted" by most audiences. Most illusions we see on Vegas stages today don't look like anything found "on earth"... now granted they might not live up to your standards but they are doing well for many magicians much more successful than us. Quote:
As to your "look it up in the catalog" line, that proves you don't know your history. lol.. No, it proves you don't know my sarcasm. I know the history, I've been doing magic since '62, Have been participating in the last dozen or so Conferences of Magical History, and don't need to lecture on where a change bag came from. Does the history of where anything originates negate it's ability to function? Quote:
Of course, these items do not exist in the real world today. lol.. sure they do... I saw one at Hollywood Magic just the other day. Oh... sorry... did you mean in "your" real world as defined by you? Wow... not sure what is real there. Let's look at it this way... do most of magicians props exist in the real world today? I'm a huge student of Vernon's naturalistic approach to magic when I do close up. However those rules don't always apply to stage. Quote:
Magic is the only art I know of that revels in the fact it is unabashedly out of step with the times. No wonder we are depicted in the media as clowns and buffoons. We're depicted as clowns and buffoons because many magicians are. Maybe I should tell Lance not to wear tails and produce birds because he will make us all "out of step with the times". Are you really saying that with a straight face? Yes, I really think you are and we can judge that accordingly. Quote:
Unless you are doing an 19th Century recreation magic show with these props, you are not an artist - you are unaware. lol... OK... I'm really, really trying to get you here. How can you have any control or valid opinion over what someone else's art is? Are you really saying that you are the ultimate judge on what art is and is not? I'm just not sure if you really believe you hold the key to ultimate truth and art or just like o pontificate on truth and art. I'm sure you have good intentions, but the qualitative judgements you've made cost some credibility points here. Quote:
The producer who cast these kids either 1) doesn't care or 2) is an idiot or 3) is blind. Ok, so those three options are (in your mind) the only possible options for the casting. That leads me to believe you just don't have either the experience or knowledge to debate this properly. I don't mean this in a bad way. Everyone has different strengths they brings to a discussion. I don't discuss existential philosophy with a plumber and wouldn't have asked Nietzsche to fix my shower.
Ray Pierce
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Rick Fisher Elite user Rick Fisher 471 Posts |
"Let's go to a Bar mitzvah on Long Island. You do the Dove pan or the change bag and see how far you get. Other than children and retarded people - They fool NO ONE."
You are dead wrong and I am appalled that you would classify audiences - anyone can be fooled IF you know what you are doing.I have performed for many types of audiences over the years - 35 years plus - must be doing something right and I still perform these effects - dove pan and change bag - ie. including those with special needs. Yes, these tricks even fool adults.........but it is All IN HOW YOU PRESENT THEM? Perhaps a new presentation is in order and perhaps sir you might start using them again.......nuff said......... |
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dbuckalew New user 71 Posts |
My feelings fall on the side of Brad. This is simply the most horrendous representation of magic in television history. I cringe when they go to the close up performers on the street. Why not just put the method up on the screen. None that I have seen have any stage presence, or skill. As for Gay, she may be a nice lady, but she has hurt her credibility in this industry and hurt this industry in general. No television magic is better than terrible television magic. It is truly embarrassing to witness. They should rename this show “Losers of Illusion”.
Don |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-23 08:35, Rick Fisher wrote: I agree with your post. The only way Brad's market wasn't "fooled" by these items is if one or more lame magician performed them so poorly that they exposed the methods to the kids. Brad's hypothesis was that the tricks weren't deceptive. I maintain that they are when presented well but that is a certain criteria that might not have been met in that market. If Brad followed in a string of bad performers that had exposed the illusions time after time, It's not that the effects were over exposed but the methods probably were. We're very lucky to have the Castle out here and the standards are not only high but there is great education for magic to be found everywhere. Are there still hack magicians around, of course. I really think we should be educating magicians rather than complaining about the tricks being anachronistic and not deceptive as that would do more to elevate the art than anything.
Ray Pierce
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-23 11:51, dbuckalew wrote: Hey Don! I really agree with a lot of what you have to say. I cringe as well when I see bad magic on television but I would fall short of calling it ... let me get this one right..."the most horrendous representation of magic in television history" lol... Maybe I've just seen more bad magic than you have!! I think at the worst it's mediocre and that's awful and the world "might" collapse and everything, but the lay public might not agree with your assessment. I think we have to remember that the show isn't produced for us. It's produced for the average American who just might not have the same degree of repulsion to this horrendous display of atrocities you describe. It's much the same reason that for years I had no desire to work magic conventions as I liked working for people who actually appreciated what I was doing. Anytime there is anything on television with magicians it seems the general disagreements from performers come from the ones that didn't get ask to do the show. This is an interesting study in psychology at play here. The ones that get ask do the job to the best of their ability and the others all sit around and say how awful it was for magic and how they could have done it better. This has been going on since I remember, it's just more visible online now. Has it really hurt the industry? I really want to know how this is worse than "Mindfreak". I'm not sure how it can effect good magician's ability to work. Now can it effect bad magicians? Maybe. If you're good, it can only help you. If the audience really perceives the show as that bad, it will make you look amazing if you are better than what they've seen on TV. lol... "Losers of Illusions" really? Bitter, party of one, your table is ready.
Ray Pierce
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Ray,
Here's where your argument is shows false: Rick laments the exposure of the egg bag and dove pan by the Masked Magician. You claim that you can take a trick someone knows and - with a change in presentation - fool them with it. The implication is that one could do this with the dove pan and egg bag. First, if this were true, then Rick wouldn't care that these items had been exposed - after all it would be a simple matter to make a minor change in presentation and viola - everyone is deceived. But clearly that's not the case, or he (and many others - such as the guys who were upset with MAKE magazine) would not have complained. Of course you can take a trick someone knows and fool them with it - but not a change bad (that was a typo, but so appropriate I am leaving it) or a dove pan (as bought in a magic shop). Their very nature points to their existence solely as a means to make a "magic trick happen." And when you look at "that nature" it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what must be going on. While I personally wouldn't want anyone to ever say, "the magic is all in the props" I know many magicians who are happy to push boxes around and let them prop take credit. While kids may yell and scream when Mickey Mouse opens the mirror box to produce Minnie, adults aren't giving Mickey credit as a magician, they think, "Huh, clever box. Where was she hiding?" I know. I watched Mickey's Birthday party show at WDW. The prop (built by Gaughan) was gorgeous. The handling was flawless. The cover for the seam with ingenious. But ultimately it was a clever box special effect and not magic. The kids screamed when Minnie appeared. The adults whispered. Likewise, when I watch a magic show, I tend to watch the audience. And while some magicians may be happy to settle for a bunch of screaming kids clamoring to be on stage - I tend to watch the adults whose arms are crossed. What do they say when they lean over and whisper into each other's ears? See, Rick may think the change bag deceives people - but has he ever asked? See, once again, it's not the guys who come up after a show and tell you that you were great that you should listen to, it's what's being said behind your back - or as Jak's said - in the restroom. I've had the pleasure of working for young people over the last 19 years. I added a venue to my tour several years back. I was the second magician they had. I also had the pleasure of spending a day with them after the show. The kids knew EVERY trick this guy performed. EVERY one of them. (He is a member of the Café.) And yes, he was doing coloring books, and change bags, and dove pans. One of the venues I work always has a second magician come in. I have been there while he was performing. He uses the change bag. Guess what? From 10 to 17 they ALL know how it works. (You might ask why they have a second guy come in? Well, the littlest kids tolerate him. And for several years, the director's were unaware that the howling they heard was not laudatory. But the kids have a good time - not from the show, but from ridiculing him. I know, it sounds harsh. But reality is harsh.) Now, you can stick your fingers in your ears and say "I'm fooling them, I'm fooling them" and let the adults whisper during your shows or give the kids something to laugh at when you are done - OR you can decide that maybe easy is not as important as deceptive. Tommy Wonder wrote a wonderful essay on this. I trust Ray, when he quotes line by line in his reply, will ignore that or tell us Tommy did not know what he was talking about. Clearly, Ray, you do not understand what I mean when I say anachronistic - regardless of your resume. You suggested Water to wine or the Hindu ropes as examples. These are not anachronistic. I think the guy who could fill his friends drinks up at a night club is far from doing something irrelevant to our times. And what is anachronistic about a levitation/dismemberment/vanish done without cover? But the human body is the human body. Shoving swords through it will always be amazing. Shoving something that no one has ever seen before - not so much. The fact one has to put them in a basket is a reasonable need. Putting them in a mylar covered octagon - not so much. There is a reason Copperfield has taken great measures to "eliminate the box" from his shows. But, c'mon, what does he know? He couldn't EVEN GET ON Master's of Illusion. Brad Henderson |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
As to this "sour grapes argument:"
What a weak straw man. Let me go on record. I do not envy any of the acts who were booked for this show. Let me go further: The problem of perceived quality has far more to do with the production choices than the talent of the acts themselves. I do not envy them - I feel bad for them. Yes, there are a few acts that should not have been given air time. (And I know of one that got air time from "connections" not skill.) But as anyone who has been in the business long enough knows - an awful act can be made to look great, and a great act can be made to look awful, all in the way it is cut. Sadly, in MOI, NONE of the acts look great. And that makes me sad. No envious. Not jealous. But sad. Saying that the are other bad acts/shows out there is no reason to them praise another crappy act/show. I realize, Ray, that you have friends on the show. I do too. Now, in talking with most of my friends, they express far more regret than any other emotion. Should I be happy for them? Well, I am. In the same way I would be happy for a friend who nailed a hot chick - and then got crabs. Brad |
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Rick Fisher Elite user Rick Fisher 471 Posts |
First of all I don't lament what the Masked Magician exposes......never said that. I am here to tell you and I stand by my comments that you can take classics and present them in a way that not only entertains but deceives maybe not the way you think it should. I watch Tom Burgoon take a change bag and have fun with it...does the audience know how it is done...90% of em haven't a clue - but he made it entertaining. Sure, there were lackluster performances on this show...do I agree with how it was produced - no, but we can find flaws in most anything if we look hard enough - the folks that come into my shop and tell me they enjoyed the show - lay people - not magicians - these are the folks that book us for birthday parties and such. They do NOT look at it from a technical aspect in most cases, instead they enjoy the magic - some of it good some of it not so good. But if you want to draw comparisons - there are bad and good vocalists - the public watches American Idol or America's Got Talent...there are critics who tear these shows apart too but the vast majority of these folks tune in to watch. It is okay to be critical of a show or magician - that is always the easy thing to do.....however you can be constructively critical without tearing one person(s) act or show apart. Magicians are "like a box of chocolates" - you just never know what you may get - some you like and some you don't ...that is human nature. I won't waste any more time on this thread..........besides, I need to practice a new routine with my change bag.
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Scott Alexander V.I.P. 1471 Posts |
Magicians are like a box of chocolates... some are bitter and some are nuts.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Can I be the bitter one? PLEAAASEEE!!!!!
Rick, I owe you an apology - it was MagicBus who was lamenting the change bag/dove pan exposure. Forgive me. But: I think the audience enjoyed watching Tom play with the person on stage. But I do not think any of them - if asked - wouldn't have said, "Oh, that bag has a different compartment in it." Sometimes 'fooling' is not the focus of a routine, or even a performer. The Great Ballantine was a funny, funny act. But why not - with just a teeny weeny bit of effort - have the best of both worlds? Why use something that looks like nothing we have seen on this planet for 100 years when with just a teeny weeny bit of work, the problem could be solved. And why "settle" for just making people laugh. Nothing wrong with being a comic - but if you advertise yourself as a magician, you should fool people too. Is it that hard to enter the 20th century? Yes, I know we are now in 2009. But I know how old magicians are in their thinking. I'm just hoping for baby steps. Brad |
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Scott Alexander V.I.P. 1471 Posts |
Brad, yes, I hearby dub thee Bitter Bitterson. BTW the "crabs" line made me fall off my chair.
On a side note.... Just wondering, if I perform for the Amish, can I still use a change bag? |
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BCS Inner circle 1083 Posts |
Yes you can…. As long as it does not have zippers.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Geez, I need more hours in my day!
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On 2009-05-23 12:40, truthteller wrote: Yes, I said I did exactly that and I've done it. I don't really care about the masked magician, and I'm not really lamenting any exposure on his show... even if it's stupid it only matters if we let it. Talent never suffers by exposure. Yes, I took a dove pan that people knew the method to and fooled them by loading after it had been examined. It only worked as I knew everyone knew the method so I took advantage of that to simply adjust the load. Now, I'm not a fan of playing to magicians and trying to come up with some convoluted method which only fools magicians. Nor does it make sense to work with single method props which have been exposed by bad magicians prior. Your argument however was that the methods wouldn't fool anyone and I disagreed. If you want to now qualify it with the addendum: "They wouldn't fool anyone that has been to bad shows where lame magicians have performed the effects so poorly they have essentially been exposed to the degree that they are rendered useless"... I can understand that argument. I just didn't know to infer that from your initial post. Quote:
But clearly that's not the case, or he (and many others - such as the guys who were upset with MAKE magazine) would not have complained. I could care less about Val either way and have told him as much. I was interviewed after the first MM special years ago by our local LA FOX news and I told them that an art form can't succeed when it is simply reduced the mechanical elements required for execution. That's what the MM series focuses on. Do we spend time on Degas explaining his brushes and how his easel folded? Hopefully we just accept the technique and allow the art to move us. The MM series is like someone standing up at a comedy club and shouting out the punch lines before the person on stage delivers them. It is simply a "Look what I know" attention getting device but everyone loses. Quote:
While I personally wouldn't want anyone to ever say, "the magic is all in the props" I know many magicians who are happy to push boxes around and let them prop take credit. While kids may yell and scream when Mickey Mouse opens the mirror box to produce Minnie, adults aren't giving Mickey credit as a magician, they think, "Huh, clever box. Where was she hiding?" I agree totally ... lol... and BTW that wasn't my show! (I am however designing a new magic attraction for FL so I'll let you know when it opens and be glad to take the shots for that one.) What we're talking about is running a multi-layered effect which succeeds on the basic level for the kids and a secondary layer for the adults. I like to involve at least two more advanced layers which are for the repeat viewers that come back to the parks time and time again. Anytime you're in an mixed crowd, you're dealing with a much more sophisticated challenge. Magicians can either rise to the occasion or just do the easy trick and have the adults figure it out. That's the simple solution and sadly the most common. Quote:
I know. I watched Mickey's Birthday party show at WDW. The prop (built by Gaughan) was gorgeous. The handling was flawless. The cover for the seam with ingenious. But ultimately it was a clever box special effect and not magic. The kids screamed when Minnie appeared. The adults whispered. I totally agree and is why I hate SO many illusions. The magicians can't rise from behind the prop. This is sadly pervasive in the middle echelon of all fields and magic is no different. Quote:
See, Rick may think the change bag deceives people - but has he ever asked? See, once again, it's not the guys who come up after a show and tell you that you were great that you should listen to, it's what's being said behind your back - or as Jak's said - in the restroom. I understand your reasoning. My experience comes from not just performing on stage but testing my theories on the public in a magic shop for years. You get immediate feedback if you don't fool someone. It doesn't require any real thinking, they just tell you outright. From my experience, if something fools them, it is apparent and likewise if they figure it out. I've done both effects for people off the street and fooled them with it. That is where my opinion came from. Quote:
I've had the pleasure of working for young people over the last 19 years. I added a venue to my tour several years back. I was the second magician they had. I also had the pleasure of spending a day with them after the show. Wow... forget Vegas, THAT'S a tough market! We all know that adults are MUCH easier to fool than kids and they require a much more sophisticated approach for many reasons. We all know the life experience and pattern recognition in adults allows for easier conditioning and misdirection, but for kids, the methodology just has to be more advanced. It's the opposite for adults. We had a few guys from JPL that used to come in to the shop all the time and I would bring out the simplest thing shrouding it in some balderdash of Newtonian physics and blow them away. We know they "overlooked" the method but kids won't do that. They have direct and more unformed minds so they aren't misdirected by the desire to seek the most complex solution for any effect. That being said, for the original magician to show them an effect... if you don't fool them with it, it's your fault. Quote:
Now, you can stick your fingers in your ears and say "I'm fooling them, I'm fooling them" and let the adults whisper during your shows or give the kids something to laugh at when you are done - OR you can decide that maybe easy is not as important as deceptive. I agree totally... I don't care how simple or complex the method is (although I do admire the elegance of a brilliant and simple solution) it must fool them... period Quote:
Tommy Wonder wrote a wonderful essay on this. I trust Ray, when he quotes line by line in his reply, will ignore that or tell us Tommy did not know what he was talking about. Brad... I'm really puzzled by this. I love Tommy's books and we share most philosophy about magic. Why on earth would I run from this when I agree with him? I think he knows what he's talking about and love his work. Do we agree on every detail? Of course not, but the big picture items are pretty consistent with both of us. Quote:
Clearly, Ray, you do not understand what I mean when I say anachronistic - regardless of your resume. lol.... Whoa... snap!!! You got me there! Hold on a sec... I need a minute to recover... BRB... Sorry, had to run splash some water on my face but I'm ok, now. I guess I meant it in it's most accepted version which for me is basically being out of place in the current time. It can be a person, place or thing which is transposed into a time when it's not "normal". The problem is that a LOT of magic is anachronistic (not "normal"). Did you remember Lance? Wouldn't his entire dove act fall into that category? Does it matter to the audience? I guess not. Quote:
You suggested Water to wine or the Hindu ropes as examples. These are not anachronistic. I think the guy who could fill his friends drinks up at a night club is far from doing something irrelevant to our times. And what is anachronistic about a levitation/dismemberment/vanish done without cover? ...or a chafing dish with a cover, or a cloth bag with a handle. Yes, we all know the history of where they came from, but does the audience or do they just accept them as part of a magicians arsenal of apparatus? They are tools... nothing more. I did notice you switched your argument to the term "irrelevant" to our times. Irrelevant simply means that it doesn't relate to the matter at hand. If you need a specialized tool to accomplish a particular function of your job, no matter how strange the tool is... it is by it's very nature relevant to the execution of it's intended job. Maybe it's anachronistic, but it's certainly relevant! (Geez, semantics are exhausting) Quote:
There is a reason Copperfield has taken great measures to "eliminate the box" from his shows. Has he really? Maybe you haven't really done a good sampling of every one of his specials but there are PLENTY of boxes! Yes, he's added cloth to a lot of things, but there are no shortage of boxes and apparatus in his magic... But, c'mon, what does he know?
Ray Pierce
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-23 13:52, truthteller wrote: Absolutely right! It is the cornerstone of what we do. Quote:
Is it that hard to enter the 20th century? lol... sadly, yes. I used to say that for most magicians being "futuristic" meant using fluorescent light bulbs in their illusions! Quote:
Yes, I know we are now in 2009. But I know how old magicians are in their thinking. I'm just hoping for baby steps. I am as well. Unfortunately the new technology driven generation thinks magic is editing yourself doing something and posting it on youtube. Success isn't measured in commercial achievements anymore, but in reaching 10,000 hits!
Ray Pierce
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I was referring to dc's current work where his team has specifically stated the goal of eliminating the box.
I was just informed you were the guy who designed the dinner shows at caesars magic empire. I understand completely now. |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-23 19:46, truthteller wrote: Whoa, wounded again!!! Man, you're good! Ok, I made it... but that was VERY close. With this level of mental abuse I'm fortunate to have a good support structure around me. I'm sure you would have mortally wounded a lesser opponent. Now that you're finished with your quick witted jabs and barbs ignoring all the previous posts... Tony Christopher designed the diner shows there... as I mentioned before I was the magic director whose job it was to oversee the implementation of magic in those shows he designed. If I have time I'll call him and pass along your clever retorts but it might not mean much to him. I was on the design team that was brought in to install everything there at Caesars. This was after they had already committed the entire production budget on about 4 or 5 effects at greatly inflated costs by one particular builder. Effects that wouldn't even fit into some of the rooms. lol... there were some great stories there! I came in and did a huge amount of work by redoing a lot of the impractical effects and trying to bring a sense of magic and wonder back into the project. That's until the day that Tony came in with a song he had written on the plane flight from LA with the dream of turning it into a campy Broadway show. Many of my original effects stayed in the 2 seance rooms as well as some of the dinner effects, but not the tone or style of the experience. That's the job of the artistic director but again, I'm sure you knew that and were just trying to get another well placed jab to deflect any actual discourse on the subject at hand. Maybe misdirection works on people other than magicians. After the implementation and installation phase I moved back to LA and on to Imagineering and Darren Romeo (one of the original wizards) jumped in as the magic director and took it down a certain path not of my choosing. I'm not going to comment on that one. Yes, I worked on the project for about a year and am very proud of the elements and solutions I created and that survived. And since you only addressed one isolated comment from the previous posts, I guess you agreed with everything else. One out of 20 points is pretty good! Yes, I'm aware that David is trying to get rid of some boxes but the more original proponent of that is Criss Angel. It's his mantra... It's all he talks about. Are you looking to him as the voice of reason and guidance in these troubled times as well? Look, Brad, I'm sure you're a great guy and differing opinions are great but they are just opinions. Your moniker says more about your perception of yourself than anything else. I'm having fun here. I have a lot of opinions that have resonated with many people, and that's how I get my jobs. You are the same, but I'm not going to pretend that my opinions are some form of ultimate truth. It's simply what works for me and the ones that hire me. Do I find it frustrating that others don't "get it"? Of course, you are the same. I can't explain the intricacies, complexities, joys and heartaches of being on the production team of an $80 million dollar project like CME in a way that will make sense to you as you weren't there. We have different experiences, different jobs, different strengths that give us different clients. Time will tell whose ideas resonated with more people, but in the end, it really doesn't matter does it? I don't know about you but I have a lot of fun and get to transform people's lives every day! That's all that really matters to me. ok, that and double stuff Oreos, I LOVE those! Oh, wait, and my wife... Hold it, can I put her before the Oreos in case she reads this? lol... who am I kidding? She wouldn't sift through all of this! But just in case... For the record it's my Wife first and the Oreos second.
Ray Pierce
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Ray,
It is tedious to respond to point by point breakdowns of one's own words. It ends up becoming an argument over semantics and the meanings get lose. Having said that, I did not intend my remark to be a slam. It did come off that way and I didn't edit it though. I am a bad man. What I meant by that was, having seen that show, I am willing to wager that you and I simply have divergent philosophies as to what qualifies as succesful magic. And once you get down to the crux of those differences, there is no point in arguing. It's a "less filling, tastes great" thing. So, let's bring this back to the central points. I hope we would agree that: 1) Many excellent performers have come off far less well on MOI than their talent would suggest. This is the fault of poor production choices. 2) There are many performers on MOI with limited experience, talent, and/or flight time (not just as performers but on specific tricks). 3) Many tricks have been repeated, and many performers are presenting their material for the first time. (As has been confirmed by those close to the production.) I would hope we would agree with those three statements. Now, we CAN argue over A. Whether or not any representation of magic on TV is actually good for magic. I do not think it is. Would I talk up a restaurant who has poisoned people because it's good for other restaurants? B. That the selection and or quality of the performance of material will impact other performers or a layperson's overall perception of magic. I for one find it tragic to see great pieces of magic wasted on nothing. It frustrates me to know that some performers have dedicated years to the mastery of a piece, only to see some idiot in a hoddie divest it of any uniqueness yet gain nothing from the performance (in terms of impact). Sure, great performers will still get their applause. But I don't think magic - allegedly an art that at its core is about offering the unique - benefits from laypeople thinking, "Oh, every one of them must do that trick." And yes, after seeing the Bowling ball and a straight jacket escape on their 12th cruise, they do. I would also contend that many of those booked should have never been cast. C. Whether appearance on a program that may be representing magic in a less than ideal light would be wise for a performer. In my mind, I would hope a performer would choose the value of his art over the gamble that their appearance may prove valuable to them. Some may value their 15 minutes of fame over being on a show that makes them (or their art) look inept. We can argue if that is wise or not. Tangentially we can agree that dove pans and change bags are props intended to look like something from a previous century and as such have no connection at all to a layman other than - oh see the tricky thing. Yet we can argue whether this matters or not. Likewise, I can attest from experience that many, many laypeople know how dove pans and change bags work. Yet we can argue if this matters or not. Likewise, we can agree that there are many other techniques available to other magicians that are more fitting to our current times and experiences, or eliminate props altogether. Yet we can argue if striving for these goals matter. And while we may agree that it is conceivably plausible to make a change bag seem appropriate to it's environment, we can argue as to whether the 1,436 guys wearing ill-fitting tuxedos on a Saturday afternoon standing in little Johny's living room stand a prayer of doing so. Have we reached common ground? p.s. as to the screenname - there is a long story behind that. It has nothing to do with my personal attitude, but an early experiment in the value of ideas over name recognition. p.p.s. Are you still working with Disney. I heard about a cruise ship project with your name attached, but nothing else. Just finding out more about the guy I'm chatting with. I have buddies with "The Mouse". |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Lol.. once again proving how irony and comedy or so difficult in this sterile medium. It WAS a pretty funny comment but I'm sure I've been through much worse.
I do think "tedious" is my middle name as most of my projects fall into that category. I'm not sure that our philosophies are really that divergent at all. It might be that we're aiming at the same target from different spaces or even realities. Successful magic for me is simply transporting the spectator to a state of transcendence where they give up on logic and allow themselves to feel that amazement that is literally indescribable. If they can explain the state, I haven't done it right. I totally agree with your first three statements and have been a victim of those bad production edits. I don't say that for sympathy but only that I really understand as much as anyone how production can effect the quality of the finished product and each magician's image. I mostly agree with your "A" statement however it allows for a lot of subjective elements which is just a personal opinion as to where we draw the line. For "B" I agree as well... It's just hard to tell what lay people consider "good". I spend so much time listening to audiences of all types... in every show I see and sometimes I still have no clue how they will react until we test something. Your next comments are right on the money as well as the casting notes. As to "C"... I'm not sure if we lie to ourselves or are just optimistic that this time will be different, if that makes any sense. You get a chance to do a show and sometimes just justify it in your mind. I do think it's impossible to tell others where to draw the line on what to do. One example from my past... I had trained big cats for years along with primates, marine, and a lot of other animals but I swore that I would never use cats in my magic act as I didn't want to be viewed as a S&R wannabe. I had a call to do a big event in San Diego and they wanted me to do a cat in the show and I respectfully told them that I was very proud of my act and what I did and that I didn't want to lower my standards to just pulling out some cat for applause. (lol, keep in mind I was young and idealistic at the time!) They really wanted it so my manager told me to just bid it out so they could see how much it was then I wouldn't have to do it. It was going to virtually double the cost of the show between the cage, the cat, Insurance, handlers, transportation, etc. so I added a $1000 aggravation fee to the quote and sent it to them so they could decline it and of course you know what happened... they went for it! So here was my choice... hold a "standard" that was self imposed for a reason I wasn't even sure of... or do a 30 second closer where I did nothing but pull a cloth off a cage for an extra $1000. lol... of course I did it! Now did I sell out... maybe to many I did, but again, we all have to weigh each decision on where to draw that line. I can only tell you that there were many other times where I chose the other way... when the reasons were just too out of line with my dreams and desires. In my mind I think I always hope the same as you... to choose the art over the sell out. I will say in tough times we have to make hard decisions. There are a lot of times when I really started to second guess my decision to turn down certain jobs. Then again there were others that seemed wrong for others but were in line with my goals so were easy decisions. We have to carve our own paths. We can indeed argue whether any of it matters or not but the important thing is to admit and savor the fact that it matters to us individually and I love the fact that we can be passionate about these things because they DO matter a lot to us. lol... "1436 guys in ill fitting tuxes" You know, it's not a fair sample being trapped in Los Angeles as I frequently forget the reality of some magic across the country... but you are indeed right. p.s. I still do a lot of contract work for Disney including a new "magic show" for WDW that is in the works for the future. I started out creating the magic for the "Hunchback" show here in CA followed by redesigning a float for the light parade, the finale illusion for The Magic of Brother Bear, a flying "Tinkerbell" for the opening of Light Magic that we redid for several years all over the country as well as 5 years designing The Magic Lamp Theater for TDL. There have been a lot of other projects I forgot but frankly I'm just brain dead after watching the Masked Magician on Tivo.... lol... just getting some ideas for a new show! I actually like debating ideas as it makes me question and either validate my own beliefs or change my mind to a better solution... either way we advance. Take care and feel free to call me out anytime! Ray
Ray Pierce
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
I guess TV is a crap shoot anyway youy look at it. I'm sure no one goes on a show expecting to look bad. Inept bumblers aside, over the years I've seen plently of the greats famously suck from the Blackstone halftime show to Blaine's recent special finale, and plenty of others in between. Yet, like pros, they endure and go on.
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