I have been friends with David Neighbors for 30 years. He has taught me so much during that time. I firmly believe in strong SOH coupled with the proper gaffs at the right time. PLUS I love playing with cool gaffs!! They just get my creative juices flowing! My magic is stronger because of the gaffs. I guarantee you that David calls me out when I depend too much on the gaffs.

I enjoy using gaffs for purposes other than that for which they were originally intended. It can make for some very interesting and visual magic that can even fool a lot of magicians familiar with the gaffs themselves--not that this last is an important consideration tome, but it can still be fun!

Yea and just becase it's gaffed does not mean it's easy! I have some stuff Where I am backpalming two coin and useing a gaff! So I love combinding Hard core SOH with A gaff!Or Takeing a Self working gaffed trick and tossing in some SOH.

Gaffed coins have their place, SOH satisfies our artistic side. Combining both often opens even newer doors. I also enjoying using gaffed hands and treated coins to create unexpected results.

Kotah

Ahhh! Purist at heart.
As as amateur I rarely anything 'special' on a daily basis.
If I'm attending an event and feel like I may want to do some tricks then I will reward my audience with some 'special' coin effects as well as be prepared for other seemingly impromptu magic.
When I did perform regularly I was always prepared.

I think that the rewards obtained from SOH may be more for the performer.

I would agree with that Jaz my man...Be prepared either way.

This string has launched some great comments from both sides of the road and the middle as well.

Firstly, I think what's most important about magic are the specs because it is their senses you engage with stories, twists and turns of reality. That being said, I guess I enjoy SOH because it psychologically leads/guides the spec through the routine. You have to do a lot of work to get people off the track while they think they are still on the track.

So one must construct a fabrication of reality as it is being judged and assessed by the spec at the very same time. To me a gaff [can] rob the performer of this feeling of shall we say, "Power." I don't know about you all but I get off on constructing a bridge that's not really there but it feels like it is to specs, so they suspect nothing and follow along...

Depending on your perspective, sure a gaff can save you the trouble of making certain things happen but it can also rob you of the real power to control spec's minds. I guess a gaff can do this too but it's too clean and it comes off not as a power but a trap or holding pen. There's no real sport in snipering a deer from a tree perch as he wanders by right in front of you. The true sport is in tracking him down and finally catching him in his element on his terms where he thinks he can't be caught or something like that.

With all of that I still think gaffs are great too and when you can intermingle them in good routines that still require SOH to pull off, well all the better. I do use basic gaffs at times in some of my routines and the funky stuff like Triple Threat, Split Coin, Super Coin, Anything by Steve Dusheck, Schoolcraft, etc. just makes the moment unreal, so I guess everything has its place or it wouldn't be here.

I sorta look at it like this...As wonderful as it is to watch Maxwell Smart and Inspector Gadget and James Bond use all their clever toys to do their jobs, I still appreciate Sherlock Holmes with a simple magnifying glass so much more for some reason. Though if I had to walk up 20 flights of stairs or take an elevator it would be the elevator...

Anyway, this string turned into a very good discussion, wish I would've provided it as one of my downloads.

I know it isn't about me, it's about the audience and entertaining them. But I can ver well do a no gaffed 3fly better than with a gaff. I don't want all my special wallets and purses in my pockets or gaffs that I don't know what to do with them in my pockets. I would rather put a few coins in my pocket and maybe another effect and then I would be able to entertain for 20 minutes if I really have to. I don't have to impress the magicians to know what I can do and what I actually do. Why are you being so negative here Jeff? I want you to explain to me in detail and with full explanation to back up your argument why I can't and why nobody can do a genuinly gaffed routine with normal coins and have it look jsut as magical as a normal routine. Doesn't it strike you as boring if you just paid your hands on top of 4 coins and have them go across to the other hand the same way 4times? You are thinking WAAAAAY along the lines of being "too perfect". Why would you want to hold 3 coins at your finger tips and have them just instantly and visuall go from one hand to the other? WHERE is the mystery in that? With ungaffed coins, you can do just that but make it actually entertaining! I'm sorry to argue but I really feel strong about this. Eric saw me to my ungaffed, 3 coins only copper silver brass that looks nothing differnt from a gaffed routine. If you show me a gaffed cop/sil/brass, I can do the exact same thing. So please, Jeff, when you tell me why $500 worth of gaffs is necessary I will do that video you want.

Hand a mixed bag of reg. and gaffed coins to Rannie or Dean Dill and STAND BACK! I've only just met Eric but he is killer with coins regular or otherwise! I only name these 3 because I know them and/or have hung out with them enough to see their work up close and personal! I know Dave Neighbors is the monster donster of mixed bag coin magic and based on what I've seen my brother Smooth do with reg. coins, I can only imagine what he'd come up with in that oh so devious mind of his with "funny" coinage! The Captain can turn a coin into a Scooby Doo van so I need not say anything about his ability! We won't even go into what the talented Mickey can do with straight coins so add some gaffage and you'll need therapy after one session!

I personally like having options!

BTW, The "Blow Change" is gaffless and STILL gives me tingly feelings when I see it or do it myself! I LOVE THE BC!

Mick

I agree about engaging the audience but gaffs are just tools like SOH and there's no difference in the psychology.

I don't really know what you mean by "construct a fabrication of reality".
I thought we were supposed to do something beyond reality.

Disagree about both the hunting analogy and robbing and power by using gaffs.

:lol: Elevator. Like I said, you're purist at heart and so am I.
To my thinking there is a cleanliness about SOH that I like so will only use assistance at certain times.

Like bringing a coin back right after you make it vanish, it's a phase.

Hi Mick,
Hay thanks man! I never been a Monster Donster Before!

I carry 1 gaff with me at all times...a shell and 4 silver dollars. My favorite routine is a 3 coin production into 3 fly and then vanish all 3 one at a time. Nothing too original, but the routining is the thing. When I produce the coins one at a time, it is done in a way that I hand out (if needed) each one instantly after they are produced. Actually I flip each one into the air with a "ping" sound off my thumbnail. I could do this without a shell (and the whole routine for that matter). But this routine is so much cleaner with the gaff. My objective is to make it as clean and as impossible as possible. My favorite version of the hanging coins plot was always David Roth's original. I did it (and still do sometimes), for many years...I love it. But, I now do Greg Brewer's version of a Larry Jennings routine and it plays so much stronger IMO. With some routines people assume that you have to be using an extra coin somehow, even though they may not see it. Do that same effect with a shell, proper routining and good sleight of hand, and you will leave them clueless. With 3 fly for example, I can clearly show that I have only 3 coins at the beginning, anywhere in the middle and at the end...just with a shell. I could go on and on... Learn all the sleights you can to perfection and then make your routines as clean and magical as possible. If that means using a gaff then so be it.

So Griff, here is a question that has been tossed around a bit. If you could, would you use a hanging coins/3fly if you could do them with just 3 coins and have them as visual and magical as with a shell or extra coin?

***I could do this without a shell (and the whole routine for that matter). But this routine is so much cleaner with the gaff.***

Mark,

I read this as an answer to your question!

MMc

What about starting with, for example, a "coin to the spectator's hand" having them handling the 4 genuine coins (keeping the [ palmed) and then sneak in a gaff for the following effect. Their conviction is established that the coins are genuine. Especially if you use nice coin gaffs, their supposed value makes it that it doesn't cross people's mind that we would do anything damaging such precious pieces of silver (and they believe it's forbidden anyway).

Then "purist" is a self centered concept: we are true purists when we go for the cleanest and slickest illusion. We are not purists if we have to do contrived movements just for the satisfaction of doing sleight of hand. Our self image is not at stake, magic is at stake. Yes almost everything can be done with regular coins but at the expense of entertainment and magic (and only for ego satisfaction or easier pocket management...)

Marion is an exception here because he can do some (difficult) sleight of hand moves that are more direct than the gesture that would be required for using a gaff.

Mind you Marion is also using gaffs in certain occurrences as he is expressing himself and he is also smartly using coins of slightly different circumferences (the most basic gaff concept) to do cleaner sleight of hand.

Thus the direct aspect of method is one of the criteria (more than the abstract and arguable concept of purity).

I think that Eric Jones' long post wraps it up. We should be grateful to Eric and Marion (or Curtis Kam) for the quality of their handling of coins whether gaffed or not. We should also be grateful to David Neighbors and David Roth for their creativity with effects in mind (with or without gaffs) that helped all of us at one time or another. No one spoke of both Davids' work with the Nelson Downs gimmick. Maybe this would have constituted another part of the answer.

Oh gawd. Does this mean I have to start kissing your ring every time I see you Dave?

"Don Dave", I like it!

It is more properly pronounced "Monstah Donstah" with a bit of South Boston or maybe Brooklyn inflection! AND, that would be "Donstah Dave" whose ring you'd be kissin!

Hay Rich,
That would be great! But I don't were a ring! Hard to coin magic with a ring on!

This gets back to the old joke about the magician who discovers a genii. The magician is granted the ability to do trick by pure magic, no gaff, SOH, or apparatus. The magician says he wants to be able to change the color of a silk.

The point being no matter how simple the gimmick, extra something concealed the question is “what does it look like to the person viewing it.”

The ability to conceal an extra coin is the same as concealing a gaff. The ability to finish clean is in the ability of the magician to conceal, switch or dispose of the extra coin, gimmicked or not.

I believe that there is a place for gaffs and gimmicks in coin magic. For those who believe that pure SOH can produce the exact same effect as using a gaff under every situation I envy you. For those who entertain only using gaffs I admire you. For those of you who use both to produce the best of both worlds, IMHO you get what it is all about.

The Magic community already has a "Godfather" with Vinny Marini. We'll need to find a better nickname to honor David Neighbors' creative genius