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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
I'm working on a card manipulation routine and I wanted to come to the Café to get some feed back on it and maybe some pointers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zupfjiPdyQ First of all someone told me that I must have been inspired by Lu Chen's act, not true, I was first inspired by the song from John Shyrock's gypsy rope routine and the card manipulation act is my own creation from years of playing and creating moves to flow together. Snow storm I was inspired by winter time in China ( Tarbell ) minus water. Any feed back would help a lot Thank you
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Okay, since you're asking (always a dangerous thing to do)...
I'm going to take off my "hanging around magic for forty years" hat and my "I used to do a manipulation routine" hat and just wear my "working in live theater for thirty years" hat. And granted this is all personal opinion, but if you were to hire me as a director, and based entirely on your clip, here's where I would start: 1. Who are you? I don't have a clear picture of who you are or why you're doing this. The rolled-up sleeves begin to give me a bit of a clue as to your personality, but aside from that I don't see a point of view. 2. The clip I saw was silent. If you don't have any music yet, I suggest you get some, as it will help define your character and your pacing. 3. The card sleights are okay, but you're moving around too much; it's like we see more moving around than magic. Unless you have a reason to move, stay put, slow down, focus on your character, and make the card stuff an extension of who you are. 3a. That little bit where you hold up the two fans in a sort of S shape doesn't mean a thing. Drop it. 4. Another reason to stay put whenever possible: you turned your back on the audience three times. Not so much that it's considered impolite, but, for all we know, you could have done it to steal an elephant. Three times. 5. If it's a silent act, don't "talk" to the audience. 6. Unless there's a reason why your character doesn't smile, then smile now and then. It'll bring you closer to the audience. 7. Your table needs work; again, who are you and why would you have this particular table? 8. That candlestick didn't do anything for you. 9. A couple of times you leaned back on one foot. I wasn't sure if you'd lost your balance or if this is a character-driven action. 10. The ending was okay, but, again, I don't know why you used a Japanese fan. The snowstorm, as presented, has nothing to do with Japan or China. I know that's the name of the effect, and you know it's the name of the effect, but Joe Q. Public doesn't know that. 11. If you don't do it anywhere else, smile at the audience at the end. They're (hopefully) clapping, so acknowledge it. Hope that helps. See what you got yourself into?
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
George,
Thank you for your time to watch and write to me but I have just a few comments and questions for you. I know what I got myself into and I am ready for that, I expect some feed back I agree with and some that I do not. If I come of a little rude I apologize. Okay, first of all what video were you watching it has music to it? If not turn up the sound on your computer. 1. I'm moving around so much do to the music. 2. " S " shape fan is something I like and it goes to the music. 3. I turn my back for 2 reasons: 1. To walk back to table 2. To riffle palm some cards 3. My back was to the audience only 2 times the third time you refer to was actually me stepping to the side, personal opinion having back to audience is not rude in any way, other magicians do it all the time, even Lance Burton, Jeff McBride, & many others have done it, and you don't walk backwards because it looks funny plus you don't want to run into things. 4. I do agree on I should smile more but I do a lot expressions with my face, my type of character is more of a mystifying persona. 5. Table? Table? What is wrong with the table? I've seen some really ugly tables before. 6. The candle stick you refer to is just the curtain opened just a little bit but I didn't realize it until it was to late 7. The ending is a part that I don't want to have anything to do with Japan of China, it's just a fan were the card turns in to confetti. Plus half of the time in magic we do things that make no sense to anybody, for example The Pendragons when they do their sub trunk why do they use a sword to lock the trunk shut when it already has a lock on it. There's no reason for the sword in that effect but everyone loves their sub truck routine. I appreciate you comments a will think them over, once again I don't want to come off sounding rude in any way shape or form. I just wanted to comment myself to give you a better understanding were I'm coming from.
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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mleskanic Regular user 152 Posts |
Hey Jeff,
I would try to move around a bit less. For the snowstorm how about trying to fan the snow with a fan of cards. I've tried it before and it works fine. You make have to experiment a bit with how big you make your fans. Hope this helps, Matt
Matt Leskanic
www.cardsharkentertainment.net |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
Why should I not move around? Movement creates excitement!
The snowstorm at the end I'm trying to find another fan or something.
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Jeff,
You're right about the music. I just went back and watched it again and there it was. No idea what happened the first time.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
George,
Now that you have music does the routine make more sense now? What positives do you see?
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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stuartmagic Loyal user Derby England (UK) 240 Posts |
Jeff,
Here is my take and comments on the video that you uploaded. In truth a video cannot really give a true reflection of a routine as opposed to a live situation. With lack of applause and not knowing how a real audience is reacting and how you are reacting back to them can give a false viewing perspective. For instance peoples comments on you moving about is true for a one camera viewpoint but in the real world if you are on a stage or platform you do need to move about to a certain extent. It obviously is unfortunately exaggerated when viewed on a computer screen, but you moving about as people say does fit in with your focal view of the routine. I have to say though that if the rest of your act you are stood still then no it would look a bit strange and out of character. You have to decide yourself what your actual style and your vision is. Style has everything to do with your particular choices when it comes to tricks and also your table. As has been said, a fan of cards for the snow storm would be better, try vanishin a porton of cards instead of just one. There has to be a bit of logic, ie: one card does not produce a large amount of confetti. Turning your back on the audience, no matter what it is for should try to be avoided at all costs, sorry but it should. If you must then try a short partial turn ( like Lance Burton ) otherwise you will slightly lose the audience. Only illusionists at certain times might need to have their back to the audience, no one else. The table you use , and honestly I am trying to give constructive comments and not have a go, looks like what is used for a childrens show or a patter act. You really could do with something like a standard hat on top of a cane or if you really must use the table you have then make the overall size smaller and ontop of a suitable leg / stand and not something that looks like you have borrowed from a musician. Why not use a champagne bucket on a stand or something similar. Again it goes back to your vision of the act as everything should have some sort of a link and not be seperate items. The table, card manipulations and a chinese fan do not go together but with slight subtle changes it will and it is these little things that count. Hope the above helps. As I said, just my thoughts and constructive ones for you to think about. Stuart Brown. British Magical Champion Of Stage Manipulation 2007
British Magical Champion
Of Stage Manipulation 2007 Derby Childrens Entertainer https://www.stuartmagic.co.uk Derby Childrens Entertainer https://www.derbymagiccircle.co.uk https://www.derbychildrensentertainer.com www.facebook.com/DerbyChildrensEntertainerStuartBrown |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
Thank you Stuart for your feed back since the video I have made changes to my table/box it has a black cloth wrapped around it.
My thinking of the snow storm at the end is that the laymen don't think like us, when they see a card change to confetti they don't think how can one card do so much. Plus I'm looking for a new fan to use in the routine. I appreciate your comments and will think about them, but do you have any positives about the routine?
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
Lots of views but no opinions or ideas to add?
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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Stanyon Inner circle Landrum, S.C. by way of Chicago 3433 Posts |
Instead of the Japanese fan think about the final production of a jumbo fan of cards, you only need five or six jumbos, which with their mass should be enough to propel your confetti into the air. Also, are those red backed or Nielsen backed cards? Was kind of hard to tell with the video. If Nielsen backed it's probably not a good idea to flash the backs.
Just a thought.
Stanyon
aka Steve Taylor "Every move a move!" "If you've enjoyed my performance half as much as I've enjoyed performing for you, then you've enjoyed it twice as much as me!" |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-30 00:05, Jeff77 wrote: Well, as far as the overall impression of what I saw on the clip, I'd say your manipulation technique looks good. When you do the fans, you're just pulling them out of the air, instead of forcing the issue. I did a lot of that myself back in the old days and can relate to it. And, like I said above, I like the rolled-up sleeves and the wardrobe, even if I don't have a clear picture of who your character is. I'm glad you're doing something about the table. Best, George
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
The cards I use are Murphy's cards and I never thought it mattered if you show the back of the cards or not because I've seen mo may more manipulation acts do this. I thought it was a natural thing to do? Or is that not a proper action? If it's a good thing then I will rework it.
Also what is wrong with using the fan to propel the snow? I just changed the color of the fan from red to blue last night so it didn't have the dragon on it I like the ideas coming back to me, keep them coming! Thank you to all ideas I appreciate them all very much !!!
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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markis Veteran user 379 Posts |
I always find comments of videos interesting. I just wonder if the comments would be the same if Burton, McBride, Tony Clark, etc did the same routine stating check out my new card routine. I doubt it. I think on Tony Clark's award winning card manipulation DVD he does an S fan and you can catch a glimpse of the back of the flesh colored cards. Not that Tony is the end to all manipulation acts but he's doing something right. Yea, maybe smile more and a card fan for the snow storm might not be a bad idea but I thought it was good.
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
Thank you markis I feel the same way you do, but sometimes it's nice to get a few new ideas to add to something in progress. I still feel that a fan for the snow storm is better than a fan of cards.
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-31 16:08, markis wrote: Not to start a flaming match or anything, but in my case, I can assure you that if any of them (or anyone else) had asked for feedback on the same clip of the same routine, my comments would have been exactly the same.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
Hi Jeff:
I really like your act - I see a ton of positive things about it. I haven't done my manipulation act for 20 years, but your act brought back lots of memories. Here are a few insights that came to mind: 1. The Oriental Fan looks terrific - I think some people are over-thinking things when they criticize your use of it. I can't remember if it was Joe Karson or Neil Foster, but one of them dressed in full evening tails and used the fan for a Zombie effect. I think it worked then and it works for you. 2. The part where you hold the cards between your hands and vanish them, followed by having them come out of your mouth...the vanish looks good, but go one step forward and hold each side of the cards with your middle finger only, with your other fingers spread out. Do the vanish like before, but it looks much more impossible. I took lessons from Dale Salwak at Chavez and this is one of the things he taught me. 3. I think I would avoid turning my back to the audience - it just seems like you're doing somehthing fishy when you do it - I'm thinking like a layman here. 4. The part where you're picking up a load from the box is a bit telegraphed. I would see about working into that a little bit better. 5. Your single productions look great! I think you'll get more applause if you build...slowly at first, and then finishing at a rapid fire pace. Again, Jeff, you have so many positives going for you! It's so cool to watch someone who's put in a lot of work. These are a just a few constructive things I noticed. Ron |
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
Very nice routine. Personally, I disagree with the comment that you need a point of view or a reason for a manipulation routine. From my perspective, you're acting as a classical magician (and are dressed as such, with a bit of a modern fashion twist), doing a good old fashioned manipulation routine, and that's all that's needed. This isn't a comedy or mentalism bit, where obviously the character is the thing. Adding a story or kabuki masks or something would, for me anyway, just detract from the purity of the routine. You're stripping the magic back to its roots, and it plays well.
The table was fine. In fact, I wouldn't mind knowing where you got it. Seems like a pretty nice ditch table. Your routine becomes progressively more astonishing, as you seem to pull an amazing amount of cards out of thin air with no effort. The overall effect is cumulative, and the routine keeps bopping along at a good clip. Usually I'm not a huge fan of snowstorm effects, but the contrast it added at the end of your routine, combined with the final card vanish, was effective and announced "this is the finale." I liked the Japanese fan - it added new color to the end of the routine, and comes off as somewhat of a visual pun, following the production of so many card fans. I do agree, though, that it would improve the routine if you could avoid turning your back completely to the audience. As I was watching the clip, and before I read the above posts, that was the one thing that jumped out. Thanks for posting. You've put together a solid and fun routine that should play well for any type of audience.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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Jeff Jenson Veteran user Denver, Colorado 319 Posts |
Thank you Ron and Maxfield for you feed back,that's the kind of feed back that works, when it's positive it makes a world of difference.
I also agree with my back to audience and have worked that out of the routine so now my back is no longer that way. I was never liked the color of the fan personally and it had that dragon design on it, but I changed the color last night and now it's blue and it shines. My table/ box I got from a hobby store called hobby lobby here in Denver Colorado.
Jeff Jenson
"Keep The Magic Alive" |
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stuartmagic Loyal user Derby England (UK) 240 Posts |
Jeff,
The choice of music you use or don't use is always a personal performers choice, however it should go with what you are doing. Your use of music would not be what I would choose for me, however it does suit you and your personal style. There are many positives with the clip of your manip routine. The fact that you are in time with your music and the manips go with the flow of music is good. The comment about not using the S fan I think is wrong. You have to put in a few flourishes in a manip routine as this is what holds the act to gether and makes it flow better. When you form the S fan the music changes and as shown this is reflected in your routine. How often have we all seen a slow paced act using fast music which just doesn't work. You finish the routine on the music beat and in an applause pulling stance which is excellent and is how the routine should finish. I am glad to know you have changed the table's look. The manip routine looks good and also concerning moving about. If you are stood still for the rest of your act then moving about during the manips would be wrong as this takes you out of character, as I said in my previous post about your style and vision for the act. The best advice really is to read what everyone has put and tells you and then mull it all over and decide what is right for you. For example, just because I and a few others say don't use a fan for the snowstorm does not mean you shouldn't. If you are comfortable with that idea and you get a proper reaction with it then it is the right choice. Being comfortable on the stage and in yout routine makes the performance better than making changes that you are not happy with. Over the years I have had many "constructive comments" and if I had listened to them all I would have had a totally different act that I would also be changing constantly. It would be nice to see another clip of your act with some minor changes in place to help with a comparrison. Have you done this routine with a real audience and how did it go ? With a live audience you would have more eye contact with them and the routine would look more natural, as I said before it is difficult to correctly judge anything without a real time viewing. Hope this helps. British Magical Champion Of Stage Manipulation 2007 Stuart Brown
British Magical Champion
Of Stage Manipulation 2007 Derby Childrens Entertainer https://www.stuartmagic.co.uk Derby Childrens Entertainer https://www.derbymagiccircle.co.uk https://www.derbychildrensentertainer.com www.facebook.com/DerbyChildrensEntertainerStuartBrown |
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