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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Pressure isn't original any way.
It was done with a coin a long long time ago. Randi |
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Tim Trono Inner circle 1114 Posts |
I realize that was a lot for you to read. My apologies for having to read a few sentences. I know it didn't even have pictures.
Wow. To justify this or think it is OK is mind-blowing. I can assure you this has nothing to do with Murphy's in this case (we do not distribute T11 products). It is just what is right and wrong period - and this is wrong. I can also tell you that many of the top creators are really starting to second guess releasing items as there is such a sense of entitlement. People just THINK they should get anything they want yet they have no care about the creators. If a release is not paying the bills for the creators why should they waste their time, money, and effort to share their creations with you? The unethical will cut them off at the knees (in this case a rip off DOES hurt the bottom line of the producer), post their productions on torrent sites, illegally duplicate DVDs or books, etc. just so they can get the information with absolutely no concern to the creator or the ethics. I know several very well known artists who have recently decided NOT to share some routines which they had planned on releasing - items you would be groveling over. My only stress quite frankly is the unethical behavior I see in cases like this for an art form I love and have been actively involved in for 33 years. I absolutely love the rest of my job - I get to see great magic, work with the top creators in the world, help in many great projects, etc. I just hate to see our art soiled. Tim BTW... could I suggest spell check to you and Max? It is a great thing. |
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max88 Loyal user 280 Posts |
Tim, you do not need to creat another debate regarding the internet magic download. it already discussed too much. It is the fact will not change, even billion dollor movie company can not change this trend, but US Movie tickets sales is jumping high now, people still go to cinema.
if creator do not want to release anything new, just let them go. We as customer paid enough moeny for lots of hype and only get little good thing. Those creator using hype AD and edited video clip to do marketing. By not releasing more new staff the lost is on creater's side, not on us. And finally I'm still anxious to wait for another hype product come out to buy and discuss it with Café fans. |
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Tim Trono Inner circle 1114 Posts |
Yes, let's just ignore the stealing and illegal activity and pretend it is not occurring. That's OK. A producer hyping their product is wrong.
Hi Randi. What effect are you referring to? I was not familiar with this idea but would love some background as I am always curious about the history of items. Thanks in advance for the info. The closest I have seen or am familiar with is Kenton's coin in balloon but it is very different (I worked with Kenton to put out that video many years ago - some very good material but poor production). Tim |
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Christopher Williams Inner circle Portsmouth, UK 4464 Posts |
I'm with Tim on this one, and am also surprised to not see many others standing against this. There was a version of Phone in Balloon put out last year I believe by Nefesch?? Enough time since for Christopher to release his version if he thought it different enough. Then, there was quite a lot of time and hype regarding Pressure from the two Dan's for Christopher to contact them and say he has independently come up with something similar, and exchange methods to see if they are the same. For me, that is common practise when releasing an effect. VERY rarely in the Magic market does an item just appear. There is hype and all sorts for a good month or two before it is released. Anyone with common interests in such effects will find out about these and have all the time in the world to contact the creator or say something on an internet forum such as the Café. It was only after Pressure was released, and people said they weren't too keen on the clean up, that Christopher said he had independently created this years ago but thought nothing of it. I am not saying you haven't, so don't get me wrong there please.
I think the right thig to do would be to allow Theory 11 to send the pdf out to customers or something similar FREE of charge. If you realise accept the methods are linked, and as Tim saidm you lost the race to the finish line of the release, then you should respect the winners and allow them to decide how they release this. You will get far more credit this way. It seems money is worth more than integrity these days. I know of a product released recently that has since had to be stripped off the shelves. The creators could have continued to release, but instead, they are destroying all copies and not releasing anymore. There is a huge bill to foot, but they chose they would rather have that than a tainted name in the business. THAT is integrity, and the Magic world needs more of that sort of behaviour. |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts |
The original line is "A New York credit card"
A little less offensive. James Quote: On 2009-03-30 11:22, Christopher Lyle wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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JamieD Inner circle London 1798 Posts |
Again, I’m agreeing with Mr. Trono on this one.
I to have been talking with some well known creators who, Due to many reasons including instances much like this one, will not release anymore. This is for me a very sad day in magic. I purchased both the Theory 11 Pressure and Lyle’s Pressure 2.0. Fair enough, you did not explain the original Pressure stage but at some points within the video you practically told us. “I won’t show you this side and what state you’re in on this side” I wonder why. I think it’s the fact that you attempted to bring this out so soon after Theory 11’s Pressure. It’s really not that dissimilar. To theory 11’s handling and to be honest it’s not that big of an improvement either. It does not warrant bringing out another download video. This being said, I believe there is a theory 11 owner’s forum for sharing ideas. Why not simply post your idea’s in here? Jesse Feinberg released something not too long ago which I had already invented a version of. My version was slightly different in method but after some careful consideration, I decided it would be best not to release it out of respect of Jesse being a respected inventor. Sometimes it’s best just to be a little bit wiser in your moves and to consider your fellow inventors and creators. At the end of the day we are all magicians and should all be looking out for one another. Best Wishes, Jamie Daws
TORCE - VMRS - DARK SERIES
www.JAMIEDAWS.CO.UK |
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Tim Jahn Special user South Florida 911 Posts |
Wait a minute Jamie... Your telling me that you bought both Pressure (From T11) and Pressure 2.0 from Lyle... And supported Lyle by doing so....But its a freaking SAD day in magic... Because you supported it? Is that about right? We should all be looking out for one another.. As long as Jamie gets what he wants?
If your so against it, why the hell did you buy 2.0 in the first place? Use some common sense man. Your being hypocritical.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart. Sincerely, Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.) |
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max88 Loyal user 280 Posts |
Now it become and old Café story that magician start attacking other magician for some better handling and tracing for credit.
As a magic product customer we do not care, Pressure original handling is not good enough, it is half finished product. And Lyle has contacted T11 but they think his handling is just so so and refuse for whatever business reason as additional info for all Pressure customer. So Lyle took effort to make his handling out. And we as customer want to buy it because the effort he has put to make it and we do not want the previous investment on Presure to be a waste due to one of its waek original handling. As I said before, if you as a professional magician has a sad day because of some big name in the magic industry do not want to release new product, then you would better to scream that the magic industry to do better thinking before they release some hype product as a common trender now. To the end, company like T11 and E and all others they release product the purpose is to make money, and we as customer want a workable product. Just that simple. For product to sale, only in magic area, that when the product not meet customer demanding or not good enough, the customer is always blamed for "Do you practise enough? Are you experience enough? It shall work, it works for everyone, if it is not work must be you has problem but not our product..." Very magical thinking!! |
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Kevinr Inner circle 1854 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-31 09:49, Tim Jahn wrote: Worth reading twice.. So true.. |
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JamieD Inner circle London 1798 Posts |
Heya Tim,
I'm not saying I'm not in support of it. I think if Lyle had Theory 11's blessing to do so and there was a significant time before it was released then fair play. I gave my view's on that particular handling all the same as if I were reviewing it. I didn't think it was a vast improvment. Chris Lyle seems like a very nice guy from that video and his variation is as valid as any other. I judt think he should have given it significant time before he released his version. It's like raining on someone else's parade. all the best, Jamie
TORCE - VMRS - DARK SERIES
www.JAMIEDAWS.CO.UK |
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joseph Eternal Order Please ignore my 17407 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-30 11:22, Christopher Lyle wrote: Actually, Bill Malone called it a Chicago credit card...
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
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tian_ci Elite user Knoxville, TN 477 Posts |
Are people really offended by an "italian credit card....?"
I mean seriously... What separates this from the million and one handlings of something like reset, ambitious card routine, coin in bottle etc... Lyle just offered his alternate ending which I think was worth the $6. I mean it's only $6 and he didn't teach pressure.... |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Oops...you're right. Malone did say the Chicago Credit Card. My bad.
When I first heard the line it was back in the early to mid 80s. Pull out a knife and call it The Italian Credit Card. Back then...people weren't so PC and the risk of offending someone wasn't all that it is today. I use that bit all the time when I'm doing anything that involves me pulling out a knife and it plays really well and always gets a laugh. But as I said before, I in no way meant to offend anyone. Don't throw the Michael Richard/Don Imus Stamp on my forehead. lol!
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
I had also heard a bit used (during the big OJ Murder Trial) of after pulling out a knife and useing it, handing it to your assistant and say "here, put this in the Bronco!"
I did that bit in ONE SHOW and quickly learned to NEVER utter it again during a performance. Let's just say I learned quickly the term "in bad taste!"
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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JamieD Inner circle London 1798 Posts |
In the UK we like to call it the Croydon credit card.
Jamie
TORCE - VMRS - DARK SERIES
www.JAMIEDAWS.CO.UK |
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Douglas S New user 14 Posts |
Its a shame this has to be my first post on the Café. None of my e-mails were accepted to register, but finally I managed to register. Hopefully I won't have to make too many posts like this.
Quote:
On 2009-03-31 10:28, max88 wrote: Pressure's original handling gets the job done just fine. Also, Theory 11 set up a protected forum for discussing Pressure's method privately. I have Pressure and thought it was fine. There are some cool clean up tips people came up with as well on there to have it improved even more. Quote:
On 2009-03-31 10:28, max88 wrote: It is a shame many magicians don't release their material. Is there a lot of trash on the market? You bet. Is there a lot of gems on the market? You bet. It's a shame that many people decide not to share their ideas as they do benefit the magic community as a whole. "some hype product as a common trender now." Yes... Hype. It's called MARKETING! If your are going to release a product, you will want MONEY! Hype = More $$$$. Is there something wrong with releasing a product and wanting sales? Is it a common trend? Yes. It's because they want MONEY. If people were just wanting to share their ideas and were not looking for money, they would make a thread on the forum and create a tutorial for it. $$$$$ is motivation FOR RELEASING effects. Quote:
On 2009-03-31 10:28, max88 wrote: Again... So Anyone who releases a product DOESN'T want to make sales and make money? You can keep telling yourself that if it allows you to sleep at night. If they didn't want money, then why don't we all just go ahead and illegally download everything that comes out? Its a lot easier, right? Quote:
On 2009-03-31 10:28, max88 wrote: No? There are clearly good and bad products out there. I have no idea why you made that statement. How is it even relevant to what we are talking about? Ok... Anyway, the fact that people can actually justify this release is frightening to me. An effect is released and then Lyle goes ahead and just releases Pressure... 2.0! OH GOODY! Just release a variation to the effect a few days later that essentially exposes the effect! Its not like there is a private protected forum for discussing this effect, right? If people justify this release as a good thing for the community, then I am scared for the future of magic. It seems everyone's code of ethics has gone out the window. I hope you enjoy your quick cash in Mr. Lyle. It seems the people on the Café support you and your quick cash product that will only hurt the original creator. My code of ethics has NOT gone out the window. I just wish it were the same with everyone else. Cheers, Doug |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Mr. Lyle isn't the first, nor will he be the last to publish improvements. For one, I'm really glad the Karl Hein did his work on Heiny 500, following on the heels of "Hundy" with his improvements.
Some people are creators, some are performers, and others are "improvers" (or whatever word works best here). Sometimes the improvements are worth the additional purchase. He's not "exposing" anything, in fact he states that you should buy Pressure before purchasing his reworked version.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Douglas S New user 14 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-31 17:31, Dave V wrote: What Lyle did was publish a VARIATION. I do not consider what he put out an improvement. Of course, that is completely up to people's opinions. Either way, Pressure was JUST released and there is a private forum for the effect so those who bought it can discuss it. Quote:
On 2009-03-31 17:31, Dave V wrote: Are improvements sometimes worth the extra purchase? Yes. Despite this, the effect JUST came out, there is a private board for it, and even others who own the download also stated that he essentially exposes it. Does Chris say you should buy the original first? Yes. Even so, he should know that some people AREN'T buying the original. Lyle selling this is not ethical. Talk about a lack of respect for magic, its community, the creators, and even magic as a whole. Cheers, Doug |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
For those that are complaining about Lyle where were you when Prohibition was released. Then Captured came along and was followed by Ghost Cap.
Seems like a double standard here. If your one of "the boys" then it seems like there is no problem. If you're not one of "the boys", LOOK OUT!
Magic is a vanishing art.
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