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Tim Jahn
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Is Shawn's method published? If not, It doesn't matter what Shawn has done. He can just as easily say he invented half the stuff out there (And judging by his personality, I'm surprised he doesn't) But just never got around to publishing it.

How do we know Greg Gleason didn't invent the thing first? He did publish it first. I don't see anyone saying anything about Greg taking Shawn's method. And does anyone know what Shawn's method is anyway? Its all speculation now because Shawn is the only one who can say. Convenient.

Shawn's late to the party on this one. that's his fault. And from the PM's I've gotten from Shawn he needs to man-up and accept that. He can PM me and be quite rude but doesn't have the rocks to post in this thread. Silence speaks volumes.

Greg Gleason is the one who Chris needs to worry about. Not someone who's only claim to fame is (Supposedly) inventing an effect that was never published.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
Suux88
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Thanks Tim

because I totally agree the only person I need to worry about is Greg Gleason,

however, I did improve on Greg's method independently and I believe this predicament mirrors that of Pat Pages Easy Money, where improvements have been made in such cases as Extreme Burn, Hundy 500, 3D cash etc.

Some improvement examples for those familiar with Greg's include not removing the bottom cellophane rectangle allowing for examination after revealing a shrink wrapped deck; allowing resealing before, during or after performance where Greg's is done before; using a signed card etc.
and
breadth of effects possible with my improvement such as signed card in sealed deck, card to wallet (sealed deck), making a card vanish and appear in a sealed deck etc.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I don't see how Shawn's effect or method has anything to do with this effect as it's not published yet.
jprace
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I personally think you should continue to work on this idea before you publish it.
You said you recently created this. Give it time to progress making it the very best it can be.
Phone Phreak is here!
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Thomas Kwon
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Chris sent me the methodology the other night, and I gotta say, it's very nice.
However, there are many touches that can be done on the gimmick and the handling to improve the effect.


Cheers,

Thomas
Michael Dustman
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 19:02, magicman4646 wrote:
I personally think you should continue to work on this idea before you publish it.
You said you recently created this. Give it time to progress making it the very best it can be.


Quite agree. One of the things I hear over and over from the big names on the Magic Newswire podcasts is how ridiculous it is to rush an effect to market that was created a month ago. Do you know every aspect of the trick if you haven't gotten plenty of flight time with it? This was one of the reasons for the downfall of Precision Magic. David Mann had absolutely no problem releasing an effect somebody dreamed up the day before.

I think until you spend some time with Shawn and talk to him about the numerous effects he has either a)had ripped off or b)witnessed his friends get ripped off, you have no idea behind the man's thinking. And if you think Shawn has some sort of massive ego, then you don't know the man at all.
Robert M
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 17:00, Tim Jahn wrote:
Is Shawn's method published? If not, It doesn't matter what Shawn has done. He can just as easily say he invented half the stuff out there (And judging by his personality, I'm surprised he doesn't) But just never got around to publishing it.

How do we know Greg Gleason didn't invent the thing first? He did publish it first. I don't see anyone saying anything about Greg taking Shawn's method. And does anyone know what Shawn's method is anyway? Its all speculation now because Shawn is the only one who can say. Convenient.



In my opinion, if someone has performed this effect in numerous magic competitions and for audiences all over the world, then they have ownership. And, as fellow magicians, we should honor that. It's a matter of professional ethics.

I don't see anyone re-engineering any of Ricky Jay's tricks and marketing them even though Ricky has never published them for magicians.

Greg published his effect in 2006. I don't know which trick / method came first - Greg or Shawn's. And, the routines are very different. Chris' method is the same as Greg's and his routine is the same as Shawn's (and Cyril's copy).

Robert
Tim Jahn
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So... What is Shawn's method? Do you know its the same as Greg's or Chris'. If not then none of this matters. He may have performed the effect, But what we are talking about here is the means to the end. My routine is different than both Greg's or Shawn's. So does that mean I can publish it based on a routine? Bottom line here is that Shawn's method could be anything. In fact, At this point he can CLAIM anything.

Re-engineering? So because Shawn did a card to sealed card case, No-one else is suppose to explore the plot. If that's the case then there are a lot of effects that should not be on the market. This is like saying no one should publish a cups and balls routine because its already been performed by someone else. Speaking of which, I believe that Ricky Jay has a nice cups and balls routine.

Shawn doesn't matter. Greg Gleason and his method do Because Greg has evidence to support what his method is.

Where were you guys back in 2006 claiming that Greg should not publish his method when his DVD came out. Did Greg talk to Shawn? If he did then Greg's method must be different than Shawn's and it so follows that Chris' is as well. If he didn't talk to Shawn, Wheres the outrage at Greg for not doing his "Homework"?

Shawn does not own exclusive rights to this plot. His method? Maybe. But since no one knows what that is, And he's not going to tell anyone, its moot.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
Michael Dustman
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 21:55, Tim Jahn wrote:

Where were you guys back in 2006 claiming that Greg should not publish his method when his DVD came out. Did Greg talk to Shawn? If he did then Greg's method must be different than Shawn's and it so follows that Chris' is as well. If he didn't talk to Shawn, Wheres the outrage at Greg for not doing his "Homework"?




Some of us were here and Shawn signed off on Greg's version. I can't remember correctly though a search at the Café would find it, but it was about the same time there was a huge outcry when Greg was releasing a version of Card on Seat that was seen as direct duplicate of the CW/Viking model. Based on that very quick discussion, Viking and Greg came to an agreement that allowed Greg to sell what limited stock he had than change the product.

Again...nothing against Greg, but I am arguing about the bigger picture of people releasing something without doing any research on what preceded it before. Anybody can CLAIM independent creation and play stupid about not seeing anyone else do it. Chris starts this thread by saying he recently came up with this while studying for finals (presumably within the last month or so) and threw up a video on Youtube. The day after he posts that, he is already "talking to some dealers."

I'm not saying Chris's routine is good or bad because I have no basis to make that determination. I haven't watched the video yet. But, if it does have some convoluted method that sucks (and again, I am not saying it does) and then people complain if they purchase it, I can guarantee we will see the same stuff we see time and time again...."why wasn't this trick vetted, why wasn't it fleshed out over many months in front of many audiences, etc, etc, etc.

Regardless, I am not going to change anyones opinion.
Suux88
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Video can be found at this link btw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAFZUhgKA......nel_page

and people I shared it with will tell you the workings of the gimmick is pretty F'n clever.

I've been working on this plot for over a year, performing mainly with a slit (and getting away with it) but this method, (almost perfect) hit me recently. If I didn't get caught before with a slit, I won't get caught now for sure and the method opened doors to endless effects.

Like I said before, it's no harder than pulling off the extractor.

I still have a long way to go if I desire to get it published, but I started this thread early to see interest and if proceeding would be worthwhile (w/ the number of hits, controversy and attention heh); The talk with dealers is to see what side they are on and if they are willing to proceed before I waste my time taping or writing up a PDF (reason for early contact).

I can tell you there are fewer dealers in support of Shawn at this moment.
Only one has turned me down politely Andi from vanishingcanemagic and the rest have shown a little more than just interest.

Chris
Tim Jahn
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 23:59, Michael Dustman wrote:



Again...nothing against Greg, but I am arguing about the bigger picture of people releasing something without doing any research on what preceded it before. Anybody can CLAIM independent creation and play stupid about not seeing anyone else do it.


And at the same time, Anyone can CLAIM they came up with just about any effect AFTER THE FACT. Shawn can CLAIM he came up with 'Lit' because he once changed something that resembled a matchbook into a card. Or 'Tagged" or anything he wants really. So that works both ways.

He "signed off" on Greg's Effect huh. I can't seem to find that thread. I'm not doubting what your saying. I just can't find it. Did he "sign off" on it or did he confirm that the method was not the same?

Chris, You said that dealers don't want to deal with Shawn. From my time spent reading his off the wall, Rude, self absorbed, Egotistical Pm's that he keeps sending me, I can understand that fully.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
Suux88
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Quote:
On 2009-04-13 21:55, Tim Jahn wrote:
Chris, You said that dealers don't want to deal with Shawn. From my time spent reading his off the wall, Rude, self absorbed, Egotistical Pm's that he keeps sending me, I can understand that fully.


Sort of,
they are saying whoever publishes first is creator... (Shawn having no proof of method publication) which most dealers I have spoke with are agreeing upon.

Only one at the moment sided with Shawn, being Andi from vanishingcane saying Shawn has ownership of this entire effect and no methods should be published until his...
NYCJoePitt
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I've met Shawn on more than one occasion and consider him to be an extremely generous magician with a sense of ethics.
Steve Hook
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Tim:

I have often enjoyed your posts and I usually agree with your opinions.

But not in this case. My own thinking coincides with what Michael D and Robert M are saying.

Sounds like you're getting increasingly upset by the discussion. On a serious note, it might be helpful for everyone to take a time out and reconsider all the others' posts.

We need your insights here at TCM and on a lighter note, I'll point out that we don't want to lose you due to heart failure. Also, take a look at this from the "Do unto others..." point of view to see if you find some value there.

Best wishes,

Steve H
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Long live Lowell and Richie!
Tim Jahn
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Steve,

I am upset. But not by this discussion. I am upset and appualed by the PM's that I recieved from Shawn. These PM's were not only rude, But totaly out of line. These PM's were regarding my support of Chris. Instead of starting a conversation with me, He chose to berate me and cry like a baby talking about all the awards that he won and asking me what I've done that could possibly compare to the greatness that is himself. Only since his PM's have I been upset and posting as such.

I'm glad some of you like Shawn. I however have have been left with a bad taste in my mouth.

My opinion on this matter stands. Shawn has a version of card to sealed card case. He is not, By far, The first person to accomplish this effect. He has published nothing regarding what his method is. So therefore no one can know if it is the same as Chris'. It amazes me that of all the people who have ever done this effect, Shawn is suddenly the owner of the entire plot simply because he says so.

This is not from an "Upset" point of veiw. These are simply facts.

I respect your opinion Steve, As always. However,I hope that you can see how idiotic this whole debate is. Shawn can claim anything at this point. And from my experience with him I would say that he would claim anything just to save face. This plot is open to whom so ever would like to explore it. What this is coming down to is method. We really don't even know if Greg Gleason's method is the same as Shawn's. All we really know is that apparently Shawn had no problem with Greg's take on it. And BTW, If Shawn's method IS the same as Greg's, all of this is moot. Anyone who wants to know the method of Shawn's effect simply has to get Greg's DVD. If it is the same there should be no outcry from Shawn as he gave the OK for the method to hit the market in the first place.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
Shawn Farquhar
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Dear Café members,

It was never my intention to give hype to this thread. I have watched my name be slandered by an individual and I have never met and defended by friends. I don't believe this was ever the purpose of the Magic Café. I was offended by a remark made by Tim Janh and told him so in a private Message. His reply was quite rude and I believe I replied without stooping to his level. His continued mention of these PM's has lead me to post them here for all to judge.

I have PM'd Tim Jahn twice now and have copied those below with his reply:

FROM Shawn Farquhar:

"As far as Shawn goes its a day late and a dollar short. He should have published this a while back."

It's folks like you with comments like this that make real magicians, those that do it for a living, not want post on the Café. Before you shoot off your callous and uneducated comments you might want to read your own posts twice.

I hope we never have the chance to meet in person.

Sincerely,

Shawn Farquhar

Creator and originator of Signed, Sealed and Delivered which has won awards from SAM- 2000, IBM -2001, FISM - 2003 & 2006 and Ron McMillian's International Championship in 2008 ... and you've done what?

FROM Tim Jahn:

Special user
Posted: Mon, Apr 13th, 2009 - 7:52 AM (EST)

Sounds good puss.

Its folks like you with huge egos that are that problem with this café.

Oh I'm sorry. Your such a HUGE name and you've done so much. I see you haven't put your position on the thread in question.

Real Magicians? What... like you? Give me a break. Just keep being a pussy and stay off the café.

I sir, hope we DO have the chance to meet.


FROM Shawn Farquhar:

Loyal user
Posted: Mon, Apr 13th, 2009 - 3:35 PM (EST)

Hmmm,

Normally I wouldn't reply to a person who uses words like "puss", but I want to make it clear. I am not a HUGE name. I am a working professional magician. I also don't have a "huge ego", which is the reason I have not "posted my position" on this thread. You know my position, I have made it clear in at least three other similar threads where magicians announced they were going to release an effect that was like my current routine ... you know the one I use to make my living, feed my family, etc. I have been in touch with Chris, privately, and he knows my position and the true history of this effect and the methods used. Our communications have been respectful and enlightening ... unlike yours.

Now, I realize you have a real job and magic for you is just a hobby and that your life experience in magic is most likely limited to the internet and some local shows, but magic is bigger than that. You have a responsibility to yourself and to magic to be more responsible in how you approach subjects that are posted.

I'm curious why you think I "stay off the Café" ... as I post here quite often. I just choose to post in threads that help magic and not ones like the one on question. The Café is about "Magicians helping Magicians" ... not magicians attacking magicians with statements like the one you made ...

Hope this clears up my position and once again I hope we never have the chance to meet, since you spend so much time on the Café you're a "Special User" ...

Cheers,

Shawn Farquhar
Creator and originator of Signed, Sealed and Delivered which has won awards from SAM- 2000, IBM -2001, FISM - 2003 & 2006 and Ron McMillian's International Championship in 2008 ... and you've done what?


And now to the thread itself and the discussion which I had no intention of replying to ... Somehow I feel lured into the discussion ...


SUUX88 Posted on April 9, 2009 under the heading: Cyril's ACR Ending Method ...

This alone means he knew it already existed to someone else and yet he spent the time to reverse engineer the effect that was not his ... To consider selling it is ridiculous... But his good friend Tim Jahn chimes in with:

Tim Jahn
Posted: Apr 9, 2009 10:10pm               

I figured this out a while back. I have a signed card to sealed card case that I thought up a couple years ago and the methods are probably pretty much the same. Its just a little more work to get the card to fall in order. And I never used mine as an ACR ender. But I could have.

I don't really think it matters if Cyril published it.

On April 11th SUUX88 started a new thread and named his new creation. This was most likely after the other thread died when the discussion had turned to the fact he shouldn't pursue a routine of Cyril's.

Posted: Apr 11, 2009 5:28pm

Hey,
Here is my new effect called Preservation which is a method to accomplish a signed card in a factory sealed deck. The deck is 100% examinable after the new revelation and I repeat NO SLITS!

I find it interesting that he keeps revealing another persons method of the effect by referring to the SLIT all the time. The Café is not a place to reveal the workings of another published performers material.

Just for the record.

Sealed Surprise by George Schlinder appears to be the first sealed deck routine. The card was not found in the correct position in the original instructions. Later copies of the manuscript have included a written in addition.

Rick Jay and Greg Gleason both have presented effects with sealed decks. Greg Gleason is available on his DVD set. Goertzen & Salinsky have a manuscript with another interesting version that is not similar to the ones mentioned above. Cyril Takayama's is using my method without permission.

I have had several PM's with SUUX88 and will now cover those here so you all know what has transpired there too:

Suux88

New user
Posted: Fri, Apr 10th, 2009 - 5:49 PM (EST)
I know you have performed a signed card in sealed Deck and wondering if you would check out my video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAFZUhgKA......nel_page

to tell me if the method is original or not, or if it's yours.
I have yet to see your performance and only based it off of Cyril's performance
Shawn Farquhar

Loyal user


Posted: Sun, Apr 12th, 2009 - 2:05 AM (EST)

Hi,

I watched your video. First it isn't Cyril's trick. Cryil's effect is mine and he and most of the magic world is aware of this. I have presented it and won multiple awards at FISM, IBM and SAM using this effect and technique.

That said, I think you may in fact be the closest if not dead on to my method. All the moves seem the same and the gimmick to cover is identical to mine. If it is the same I would not be able to tell unless I saw the case a little slower in the presentation.

I am curious why you spent so much time to recreate something that already exists, when you obviously have the talent and ability to create something of your own? I look forward to seeing whatever you create next using your own imagination.

My effect, Signed, Sealed and Delivered will be released following FISM 2009 in China this Summer.

Thanks for writing and I wish you all the best with your next endeavour.

Cheers,

Shawn Farquhar


Suux88

New user
Posted: Sun, Apr 12th, 2009 - 2:22 AM (EST)

For mine, all I will say is rubber cement

Would you kindly link or send me a video of your performance as I have yet to get an opportunity to witness.

Regards,
Chris


Suux88

New user
Posted: Sun, Apr 12th, 2009 - 6:54 PM (EST)

Hey Shawn,
I took the time to search and if my method is as yours, it is apparently not new and you can find at this DVD "Greg Gleason - Theater Close Up vol2".


Shawn Farquhar

Loyal user
Posted: Sun, Apr 12th, 2009 - 8:31 PM (EST)

Greg and I are great friends and have been for a long time. His method is good but mine is better. In fact the video for the DVD was shot by my friend, Todd Noel and it was filmed in the Stardust theatre ... where I am sitting right now.

Greg's routine did not use the cover card idea which is a new use for Paul Harris's gimmick. His takes place in a paper bag and the rotuine deals with two different colored decks. His loading of the card is great but mine is different.

Oh and although the idea of having a sealed deck may have been an old idea, before me it was never done with the card returning the correct position, let alone being able to give the box out at the end. Mine by the way can have the box examined to the hilt following the routine and nothing will be found. The rubber cement was an early version I used but it can be done better.

I saw the thread and the discussion and just want you to understand my position. I don't believe I have to market or publish my method to still hold the rights to the routine I created. An example of this would Michael Ammar's card in lemon, an effect he performs regularly but has never published or sold. It's his, anyone who re-created it would be infringing on his rights and I would consider unethical if they were to publish, market or even give away the idea. But then that's just my opinion.

I have spent my life as a magician and want to be a magician others respect until I die and for that reason this is how I operate.

Sorry I don't share my card routine video with others. The performance is available however on a new DVD put out by International Magic of London from my championship performance in December in the UK.

Cheers,

Shawn

I will release my routine and method when I feel I should. I have used it to win many awards and still want to try at FISM 2009. I don't know when things changed but when did it become necessary to reveal/publish your ideas to retain ownership? I await Tim Jahn's brilliant reply and what I am sure will be a flurry of flames and jabs. For those of you who understand my position, thanks.

Sincerely,

Shawn Farquhar
currently on the Norwegian Star in Mexico
(where this email cost $0.75 a minute to write)
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Copyright law extends to the first time that something is PERFORMED, it doesn't need to be published.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
Suux88
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Quote:
On 2009-04-15 02:47, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
Copyright law extends to the first time that something is PERFORMED, it doesn't need to be published.


That is an extreme statement no?
Then more than half the stuff marketed and performed should be illegal...

If so, compared to the first person who performed a levitation all the published methods and performances now infringe on copyright no?

Then Shawn using this in his performance is illegal no? Because someone performed it before him, so he's infringing on Copyright no?
bcookmagic
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Shawn well said. Your friends extend all over the world. I have known you for a very very long time and for anyone to attack you like this is really unfair. I do hope you run in to him at a convention just so he can see who you are and why you are one of the most respected magicians in magic.
If your not having fun doing what your doing....dont do it!
WWW.BRIANCOOKMAGIC.COM
Lee_Hathaway
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I very rarely post on the Café for exactly the reasons Shawn details above, and having been a victim of it myself on here.

It's true, there are some decent members on here, but there is a core element of individuals simply out to incite hatred and nastiness at any given opportunity.

These people evidently have little to do with themselves and no doubt revel in the instancees where they are able to get the back up of a known or well versed professional.

In the instance of Tim Jahn above, it probably made his day to get a private message from Mr Farquhar in whatever way, shape or form. Shawn, you should know better than to give the time of day to such idiotic behaviour. If none of us took the bait from these jerks they'd soon dissapear into the ether. True though, it's easier said than done - I've done my fair share of defending myself in private msg's in the past but in the end you just get fed up.
puffinmonkey
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Thank you Shawn for clearing things up. Really appreciate it.

-Alex
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