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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Mneomonica and applications to other stacks (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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hcs
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Aronson, Tamariz or Great Zampano stack - this is not the question! The question is to LIVE with the stack. You must keep your stack alive!
Melencolia I - Magic Squares for the Mental Entertainer * Smart Methods for 4x4, 5x5 and 6x6 Magic Squares * 148 A4-pages
Lawrence O
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To my knowledge once you know a stack you stick with it.

I made one based on the 8 Kings principle and using a principle which is not mine to break the easily spotted cyclical patterns: when the card is odd go to the next one in the SHoCkeD sequence and if the card is even go up two steps. A great invention which works with any stack and any suit sequence. I just reversed my (different) 8 King phrase half way through to build a mirror deck which offers possibilities rarely used which Juan knows well... and because I'm reckless I use a marked league back Bicycle (one way) deck. Hey! What the heck?...I can still do sloppy looking great sleight of hand to make the matter worse. I explained it somewhere here in the café and in more details

Now for the ones who do not share my distaste for gambling routines, Claude Rix book offers a stack especially made for gambling routines, which from what I understand is fabulous.

In Peter Duffie's book on Fred Robinson magic there is also a routine to demonstrate in sequence a cheating routine at poker and then at bridge one when the deck is constantly shuffled between each event (Faro needed here). For the little story, back in 1976 I had added a Black Jack and a Gin routine by starting at the end (bridge) and (reversing the shuffles from the table to the deck in hand) had built it back down to a black jack (2 cards), poker (5 cards), gin (10 to a player 11 to the other) and bridge. It was alternating Zarrow shuffles and Faro shuffles. I had it in my wallet for at least ten years and must have been performing it no more than three times before I lost it. I detest challenges in magic effects.

Simon Aaronson has developed some very smart principle for stacked decks which are adaptable to almost any stack, don't pass him buy.

Juan wrote the best book by far on the subject but his stack is not particularly better.

Check also Martin Joyal.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Xipe13Totec
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Ive personally just learned the Tamariz stack and I'm enjoying it emmensly... but ive found its the tricks that are universal with memorized decks that are not only the most usefull but also the most effective, not the tricks that are specific to the stack... a friend of mine made up his own stack a few years back and just recently learned the Tamariz and he decided to just use his own order still. not because Tamariz's was inferior, his order has no stack specific tricks, but because he knew his order better and enjoyed the unversal memorized deck tricks better.

the only thing that swayed me deciding weather I wanted to learn arronson or Tamariz was that Tamariz's stack is very easy to get into stay stack order which has a wealth of tricks custom to that as well... I'm not going to say that being able to get into it from a new deck order isn't a good attribute as well but how many of us are really going to open a new deck everytime we decided to show a trick, or in the case of doing walkaround, have 20 new decks on you just to take advantage of it
The Amazing Noobini
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The more new memorized deck effects I see or read, the more I realize the scope of my original memdeck problem: I really cannot find more than a couple of effects that I think are very good. Many are very clever, but I don't think they make for great card routines.

There are others that I like a lot but cannot do impromptu either because I cannot do the calculations required, it cannot be adapted to my stack or it needs a completely different setup (like Heisted Histed).

So I think the choice of stack is CRUCIAL if it contains one very good built in effect one wishes to do.

I think today if I had found one specific trick that I really loved which required a full deck setup, I would just memorize that and have the effect always ready, plus the Open Index principle. And never mind Bridge hands and whatnot. All the good effects seem to simply be about knowing where everything is.

Well... the search still continues. Smile
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
MagicJono
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Quote:
On 2009-04-27 01:09, captainsmiffy wrote:
I need to make an informed decision on the work required for mnemonca versus the rewards for it and the time taken to do it. I have heard many great things about mnemonica but would appreciate some advice from those that know.


Hi Smiffy, my memory is pretty poor usually, but I kid you not I learned this stack in 1-2hrs and was performing with it the same night. Memorizing a deck is not as hard as you think. You just need to visualize objects and tie them together in your mind.
As I said in another thread I memorized my journey to work mentally putting the cards on signs and turnings that I see on my way to work. Far better an easier than the way suggested in the book. Well worth learning people cannot figure it out.
Turk
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Quote:
On 2009-05-03 12:32, Nathan Alexander wrote:
Man - I actually was going to say something, but all this talk of pant-wetting makes me have to run to the bathroom... (am I getting old?)

I'll have to be back...hehe.


"am I getting old?"

That all Depends. Let's Pamper ourselves, have group Huggies all around....then it's time for a nappy-poo.
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
Magicmike1949
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Well, I guess I'm one of the weird ones who knows and uses both the Aronson and Tamariz stacks. I learned Aronson's first and probably use it more just because it's been in my head longer. I use Tamariz mostly when I want to start from a new deck order and end up there too. I've read where some people pooh pooh that. Well they haven't tried it, I'll wager. Few things are more impressive. I love mem deck work, but my advice is don't overdo it. Coupled with false shuffles and deck switches and partial deck stuff, it gives you an arsenal that is impenetrable. I defer to Nick Pudar, who is a formidable expert in this field and say,"Use what you will use." But if you have both Aronson and Tamariz's books, with their stack independent effects alone you'll have more than you'll ever need. Then find some nice sequences and put it together as a routine. Also don't overlook Pit Hartling and MIke Close's work in this area, as well as Ackerman and Josh Jay.
Dennis Loomis
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I first learned the Nikola System from The Encyclopaedia of Card Tricks by Jean Hugard when I was in High School. I was using Harry Lorayne's mnemonic systems and that's what I used to learn the stack. However, as a youngster I failed to realize what a powerful tool a mem-deck is and after playing with it a bit I just didn't use it much and over time I forgot it.

My magic career kept me busy doing primarily stand up and for many years I did not return to the idea of a memorized stack. About 15 years ago, inspired by Simon Aronson and Mike Close I got interested, again, in the concept. I bought a copy of Bound to Please and learned Simon's stack from his instructions. This time I kept with it and started carrying a deck in Aronson Stack order with me virtually all of the time. I started performing some stuff and became hooked on the concept. Today it's my favorite tool as far as a method to use when I want to do a card trick or even several. It's far from the only tool in my arsenal, but it's the one that I truly love and depend on most often.

Do I have different memorized stacks in my head? Yes and no. It's yes in the sense that I have memorized stacks of Kids Cards, Movie Posters, and the 52 deck ESP deck. These are all marketed effects and I can't go into detail. The ESP Deck is called Symbology and each of the ESP Symbols relates, in your mind, to a playing card. So that deck is stacked in Aronson order but the cards are then translated into the ESP Symbols.

But I don't have two different stacks of regular playing cards memorized. I've always been concerned that it might cause some confusion, but I'm sure that can be overcome. Recently I've been thinking about learning Mnemonica as well.

By the way, the ease with which MagicJono learned Mnemonica is probably not related to the order of the cards, but to the dramatic methods that Tamariz teaches you to use to learn a stack. There is no reason that these could not be applied to other stacks as well.

I agree that it's probably a good idea for a card man to think about creating a stack to memorize that has cards in order for effects that he uses a lot.

Lots of good food for thought in this thread. Thanks to all that contributed... I always learn something when I drop into the Café.

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
The Amazing Noobini
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Quote:
On 2009-05-19 10:28, Dennis Loomis wrote:
...I've always been concerned that it might cause some confusion, but I'm sure that can be overcome. Recently I've been thinking about learning Mnemonica as well.


Me too! Even though I don't desperately need to know Mnemonica as well as the wonderful Aronson Stack, it would be kind of nice to open up an entire new world of possibilities. And I do enjoy a good challenge. But not at the potential expense of the level of absolute rapid fluidity of my Stack, which I am now finally enjoying.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Magicmike1949
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To Dennis and Noobini, I would encourage you to go for Mneumonica. I know we each think differently, but I can honestly say that it's not a problem having both stacks in my head. I learned each stack by the author's suggestion and it works great. I'm just looking for ways to use two decks each stacked differently to achieve some astounding results.
captainsmiffy
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Thanks for all of you who have taken the time and trouble to advise me on mnemonica; it is very much appreciated. Am now waiting for a trip to civilisation (defined as a country with relaxed drinking laws that also possesses a decent magic shop! Dubai falling short on at least 2 counts!)

As an aside, am releasing an effect through the Merchant of Magic called UP The Ante; if anyone is interested then take a look at Gary Jones post in Latest and Greatest. Think that it might have fallen to around page 3 by now! Am told release date should be this week as a download.
Have you tried 'Up The Ante' yet?? The ultimate gambling demo....a self-working wonder! See the reviews here on the cafe.
captainsmiffy
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The trip to civilisation is to purchase mnemonica by the way.....!
Have you tried 'Up The Ante' yet?? The ultimate gambling demo....a self-working wonder! See the reviews here on the cafe.
Jeff Kellogg
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Mnemonica is the best- and since so many magicians use it- it you bump into another who does- you've got a lot to talk about
captainsmiffy
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That little trip that I mentioned, back to civilisation? Well, I just got 3 newcastle trips for June (as well as a boring old Seychelles layover - but, hey, somebody has to do them!!). You have all, in your own way, encouraged me to buy Mnemonica and so I am hoping to purchase it whilst on my UK Newcastle trips. It now begs the question "where is the nearest magic shop to newcastle?!" - and if you own a magic shop in newcastle can you PLEASE ensure that you put one copy aside (mnemonica) for me!! Seriously, not sure what forum to use to ask about magic shops so I thought that since you chaps have been ever so helpful maybe one or two of you might know and point me in the right direction.

This is turning out to be a good month since 'er indoors, who is currently in the UK for a short while, has bought me Card Concepts as well! Yes, I know that it begs the obvious question as to why 'er indoors can't simply bring mnemonica home - like many magicians wives she can't be allowed to know how much got spent on magic this month and so it has to enter the UAE in a clandestine fashion in the bottom of my flight bag!
Have you tried 'Up The Ante' yet?? The ultimate gambling demo....a self-working wonder! See the reviews here on the cafe.
captainsmiffy
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Chaps, I have just received an incredibly generous offer of a complimentary copy of Mnemonica from Dominic Reyes and the Merchant of Magic and so will not need directions to all magic shops nearby to Newcastle after all! Am rather stunned at so generous an offer...what a gentleman. See the thread running in 'Latest and Greatest' entitled 'Up The Ante'.

Will now be able toget down to the serious work of learning in Dubai!!
Have you tried 'Up The Ante' yet?? The ultimate gambling demo....a self-working wonder! See the reviews here on the cafe.
hcs
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My standard advice: Pick the stack and use it with a selected built-in blockbuster trick.
Melencolia I - Magic Squares for the Mental Entertainer * Smart Methods for 4x4, 5x5 and 6x6 Magic Squares * 148 A4-pages
Cohiba
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I am one of those who switched stacks. For me, the reason was because after working with a stack for a few years, I had a better understanding of how MD magic worked, and also of what I wanted to accomplish with it.

When I was relatively new in magic, I started to hear about "memorizing a deck", and that there were some amazing things you could do with a MD. I was curious, and was pointed in the direction of Aronson. This was long before Mnemonica came out in English.

I started picking up Aronson's books, and was floored by what you could do with a MD. From reading Simon's material and discussions with other magicians, the Aronson Stack seemed to be "THE" stack at the time. It was pretty much considered the best MD stack out there. There were some rumblings of Juan's stack, but it wasn't available to me. I read everything I could find on MD's, and I found Mike Close was a big fan of and used the AS as well. So that was the stack I went with.

I really enjoyed the AS, and MD work in particular. But over time, I found that I really didn't use the built in effects of the AS. The one exception (and I know many don't care for these) - were his built in cards from 10 - 15 that you could instantly spell to. I didn't use them often, but I did like jazzing, and they came in handy from time to time.

Then came the introduction of Mnemonica to us English speaking folk. It was a must have for me, and many were now touting "this" as "THE" stack to have. I didn't want to start over with a new stack, but the ability to go to / from NDO was very appealing - mainly because (like Cain has already mentioned) ending in NDO is a killer climax. I agree (as mentioned earlier) that the effects in Try the Impossible are not the type of tricks I would do much of - I think there is a benefit and place for them if you use the AS, but I wouldn't do one of the effects without being a user of the AS as my MD. They just aren't strong enough to warrant stacking a deck.

So after thinking about it long and hard, I started working on Mnemonica. Thankfully I didn't get too far, because it was during this time that I started questioning this new decision. For one, yes, you can go to / from NDO with Mnemonica, but IMO, it is a rather clunky process. Also, with the exception of the NDO, I didn't come across a bunch of effects built into Mnemonica that I needed to have. I agree as again, mentioned earlier, that the MD tricks that are the best seem to be the ones that are stack independent.

After some more research, I ran into this thought: maybe I should make my own stack. I ran into Cain on TMC, had some discussion and considered - and eventually agreed - with his thinking (much of which he has included in this thread). I think he has some very good thinking on this subject. One of the main points I took from his advice was to pick a killer ending that you'd use, and use a stack that had that killer effect built into it.

This was the route I ended up deciding on. And there's something very cool about deciding which effects are important to you, playing around with a stack, making modifications, etc. When you come up with something that has the main ingredients of what you're shooting for, plus some clever things of your own that you both work out of it and work into it - the stack becomes "yours". I've had a lot of fun constructing "my" stack, and it's pretty cool how you can discover / work out your own effects in a stack, much like the effects in Try the Impossible. I also found that certain effects which use specific groupings of cards in the Tamariz stack (for example) could be reconstructed to work with similar groupings in my own stack - so you could perform the same effect. My belief is that there are many more items like this to be found in most stacks. So it's been a journey for me (one that's not yet over), and one I've really enjoyed.

So to end this long post, I have two questions of my own, for Cain. And maybe these are not something he wants to share, which is cool too. First, Cain, you mention Steve Ehler's 3 Card Location. It's a killer trick, one that I used to fry people with back when I was using the AS. The version I learned destroyed the stack - so I'm curious how you get back to NDO after that. Again - if that's confidential - no problem - I'm just curious. ;o)

Secondly, you mentioned switching from the 5-Faro stack. Were you meaning that you switched to Mnemonica, or were you only meaning you had switched to something else? You seemed to be endorsing Mnemonica, so I wasn't sure. Again, I understand if you wish it to remain a secret.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread - great information and a good read!
Cain
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Cohbia:
Quote:
So to end this long post, I have two questions of my own, for Cain. And maybe these are not something he wants to share, which is cool too. First, Cain, you mention Steve Ehler's 3 Card Location. It's a killer trick, one that I used to fry people with back when I was using the AS. The version I learned destroyed the stack - so I'm curious how you get back to NDO after that. Again - if that's confidential - no problem - I'm just curious. ;o)


Hmmmm... maybe I need to re-read Ackerman's KARDMA because Ehlers's three-card location is based on the third phase of "Ackerman's Opener." On the Ehlers' Magic Makers video, which I picked up in Salt Lake City for the scandalous price of 3 dollars (the guy bought the rights), I'm almost certain he reassembles the stack in New Deck Order. As I may have mentioned earlier in this thread -- I'd have to check -- the version I actually perform more closely resembles Bill Malone's "Hands Off Memory Test," vol. 3 of HERE I GO AGAIN. I mention the Ehlers trick because they're so similar, and his came first, though Malone has more varied revelations.

One other thing: this trick is strong enough to use as a closer. We have a cool member on these forums named Ed Oschmann, and I vividly recall a post where he said he saw the Ehlers trick at a lecture, it blew him away, and motivated him to memorize a stack. It's that awesome. But what I think is even more awesome is using it right before assembling the cards in New Deck Order, similar to the routining in "Ackerman's Opener." (For those not familiar the Three-Card Location/Hands Off Memory Test involves the spectator in freely shuffling ~1/3 of the deck. THEN you go into NDO. So, when it comes down to it, I basically memorized a deck so that I could use it to augment another trick.

Quote:
Secondly, you mentioned switching from the 5-Faro stack. Were you meaning that you switched to Mnemonica, or were you only meaning you had switched to something else? You seemed to be endorsing Mnemonica, so I wasn't sure. Again, I understand if you wish it to remain a secret.


No, it's not Mnemonica because, as you said, the process getting into NDO with that stack is rather clunky. The one I use is nothing special. I'd say it's a first-cousin of the five-faro stack with one slight adjustment. (I'm sending a PM in a moment.)

When it comes to memorizing a new stack, it's not that big a deal. I didn't want to do it because the change in my case was rather tiny, if not cosmetic. Plus, as Cohiba said, we get accustomed to where certain cards appear. I forget who said it originally, but writers have an expression: killing their children. They fall in love with certain subplots, phrases, but if those efforts do not push forward the story, too bad. That's the discipline. The tradeoffs can be painful.

One other thing. Bob Klase has a quite interesting stack that spells cards 10-15; it also has the 10 card poker deal built-in, and with a few faros it can set you up for Daryl's Double-Dazzler Triumph (or any red-black routine - Out of this World etc.); another faro and you get all four aces on top (plus the colors alternate), and I believe there's other stuff. I'm surprised people don't talk about it more because it's similar to Aronson's but the built-in tricks steer further away from gambling.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
edh
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Cain, when you say Bob Klase's stack is similar to AS, do you mean quite a few of the cards are in the same position as in AS?
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Cain
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No, I mean it's similar in terms of built-in tricks, though I can only think of two at the moment(10-15 card spelling and 10 card poker deal), so perhaps "similar" is an overstatement. Although it does surprise me how many people are sold on the 10-15 spell out. On another forum someone said it was his main reason for switching from Joyal to Aronson -- the fact it facilitates "jazzing."

For anyone who values these spelling positions and interested in building their own stack, consider T-H-E S-E-V-E-N O-F S-P-A-D-E-S at position 16, T-H-E 4D at 17, T-H-E QD at 18. That's 50% more coverage. Put a nine in the ninth position and you can count to it.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
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