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illuzzionz New user 89 Posts |
I love seeing the different performers perform the same illusion consistantly on the show. We've seen what, 2 floating ring routines, 2 origamis, 2 of the sword box metamorphosis thing. Maybe we should just do 8 illusions and every week have different performers do there presentation of it with music not of there choosing!
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Jethro Magic Regular user 148 Posts |
Ouch!!!very harsh comments.
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Hansel Inner circle Puerto Rico 2492 Posts |
Im with Lyle in the point of Worlds Greatest Magic. One per year, and have THE BEST! I think Less is more, I prefeer a ONE GREAT SHOW every year in case of a weak one per week.
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Magic1man New user 87 Posts |
As bad as some of the street magic segments are it could be worse! I don’t remember the name of the shows but they featured Franz Harary usually doing the finale stage illusions, He may have even produced the shows? (Someone please help me with my memory) Any way, they called the street magic segments , “The 10,000 Dollar Magic Challenge”. The idea was that the magician would challenge his spectator to catch him by figuring out how he accomplished his trick, thus winning the 10,000 Dollars! After the magicians finished their tricks they would smugly look at their spectator and emphatically say,”Gotcha” !
I can’t possibly think of a worst way to present magic , totally deemphasized the magic, and all magicians came off as jerks! I remember thinking, “ I would want to punch those guys in the face!" I don’t want to punch Krysten Lambert in the face! |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
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On 2009-05-21 19:10, Magic1man wrote: I would love to have KL on that show and see how many people would walk away with $10k in their pocket! The answer to the struggling economy! She could SAVE THE COUNTRY!
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Chad Sanborn Inner circle my fingers hurt from typing, 2205 Posts |
Alright. Some good and constructive posts here.
So now, lets assume you are the producer. Who are you going to book? Keep in mind that you a limited budget. You have to have a bunch of different acts each week. Don't duplicate material. Work around the performers schedules. Ok get at it! So now post your bookings. Who, what act, how much to pay them, etc. Not so easy now is it... |
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
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On 2009-05-21 21:26, Chad Sanborn wrote: If I were a producer and It was my expertise/job then it would be very easy. A few "Masters" that come to mind would be Doug Malloy, Magic Unlimited, Bill Malone and Dimare. I would pay them what you paid Kevin James and the other big names. I definitely would not have that guy with the sword metamorphosis be the finale of a show. I second the fact that less in this case is more. Are you telling me that these producers cannot find suitable acts for Masters of Illusions? If they can't then they should be fired. I find the MM show more entertaining and less exposing. LOL! |
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dearwiseone Inner circle Portland, OR 1143 Posts |
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On 2009-05-21 21:26, Chad Sanborn wrote: Why do there have to be "a bunch of acts?" How about going for quality instead of quantity! Limited budget? Maybe they should have waited until they had secured better financing. That's the producers fault. That's what producers do, in part. To say that it's not as easy as it looks is a poor excuse for poorly produced TV. I don't think anyone would argue that they found the BEST magicians around, the true masters, and showcased them on the show. If they didn't have the budget for the names they needed to make the show successful, they should have waited a year, found new funding, or changed sponsorship. Auditions are a great way to find talent. What about announcing something in the major magic publications, asking for demo videos, or announcing it on the Café. There is some major, major talent here on the Café. Producers aside, the show suffers from terrible cinematography, poor camera work on the streets, badly filmed angles, poor editing, and very poorly performed magic. In addition, the name "Masters of Illusion" doesn't fit the show. That's not what it is, so why call it that? All of this being said, I've enjoyed a few of the acts, and we as magicians would probably have been more content from the start if it was called "Some magicians performing" instead of "Masters of Illusion" |
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jamiesalinas Special user Houston 728 Posts |
There is a lot of criticism here about the show. One of the things I enjoy about this show is that there are "new" people mixed with people like Mac King and all of the other greats mentioned here. Yes there are some mediocre performances (be nice, we have all seen worse. In fact it may be you or me that has done worse) and yes there are tricks that are repeated.
David Blaine was attacked by Magician's who thought, "Hey, I am better than that!" when he first appeared on TV and many were right but He changed the way magic is presented on TV with a different point of view. There are many factors that go into putting on these shows that we are not aware of that create limits on a finished product. These shows are on UPN! This is not the big three networks. I applaud Gay for using new blood. The biggest frustration I have heard from the performers is that the editing has ruined the flow of their performance. I would like to see the shows feature just a few performers per show so that we as viewers can get a better feel for the entertainer as opposed to seeing one trick or just a few minutes of their performances. I would have loved to have seen Levent perform for at least 20 to 30 minutes on one show as opposed to seeing his performances chopped up and spread to several shows as with many of the performers. As for KL, she is young and I hope she learns from this experience AND will grow from the criticism that she has been given. I do agree she looks like she just left a magic shop with something she bought the day before the taping or possibly the day of the taping. Bottom line is I like the mix of new with the current established well known professionals but there are much better "new faces" to feature. Maybe you should send Gay a video of your act for possible inclusion of future projects. Jamie
Jamie Salinas
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-22 01:02, BYUDAD wrote: lol... which is like someone in your audience saying "How tough can his magic be? I could buy the same things he could and do it!" Saying it is easy is coming from having no experience trying to produce a show. Look, I have my feelings about the show and most of the acts but to say even attempting to get that to the is easy is just nuts. Quote:
A few "Masters" that come to mind would be Doug Malloy, Magic Unlimited, Bill Malone and Dimare. I would pay them what you paid Kevin James and the other big names. The first problem is that you don't realize it's a favored nations policy and everyone on the show gets paid the same. Yes, That's right. The "big" names who you recognize and the others all get the same rate. If you don't do that, you have to individually negotiate with each performer and the entire process frequently collapses. You'll find out about all of that when you produce your first television show. Quote:
Are you telling me that these producers cannot find suitable acts for Masters of Illusions? If they can't then they should be fired. Yes, I'm telling you that. You don't have any idea what they are all being paid do you? I'll wait....... The trick is to get the best people you can for the budget and the schedule. They didn't even ask me to be on the show, they just sent me a contract for the shoot days even after I told them I would be out of town, so I had to call back and remind them that I couldn't do the show. You have to get people that are willing to be there at the right time and date and some people just can't fit it into their schedule. The logistics with organizing these shows is daunting at best. The biggest problem is that people who have no experience producing anything like this think that anyone can do it. Quote:
On 2009-05-22 01:27, dearwiseone wrote: Because the networks paying the bills have specified what they want to buy. When you go to the store to get a bag of potatoes to feed the family, what if the grocer suggested one REALLY great potato instead? Maybe you know what you want better than the grocer. They are your dollars making the purchase and you can buy what ever you want. The networks make a purchase based on what they want to try and meet their budget with. If you're selling a show you can either give them what they want to buy or let them go somewhere else. Quote:
Limited budget? Maybe they should have waited until they had secured better financing. That's the producers fault. That's what producers do, in part. If you want to sell your car for $100,000 you might not get as many takers. You have to find the right price for each product. You can "wait" as long as you want but the price is a product of the network, the time slot and the advertising revenue generated, nothing more. If you had a different product on a different network, it is worth more. Quote:
To say that it's not as easy as it looks is a poor excuse for poorly produced TV. Ok, so what IS a good excuse? I'm not sure just how much research you've done but MOST of television is mediocre at best. That's what makes it "mainstream" and the largest part of the bell curve. There is some great television but we all know that is the exception. This show is no different. Quote:
I don't think anyone would argue that they found the BEST magicians around, the true masters, and showcased them on the show. Nor does the client care. The "Masters of Illusion" is a hook to get people to tune in. The Netorrk executives who buy the show really don't care if a bunch of magicians sitting around here like the acts or not or even if we think the people on the show are "Masters" or not. They are trying to make a profit. If viewers stay on the channel long enough to see the commercials, then the show works. The goal of the executives is to create the greatest return to their shareholders, very simple. A show is successful for them when they spend as little as possible and get the best numbers from it. Quote:
If they didn't have the budget for the names they needed to make the show successful, they should have waited a year, found new funding, or changed sponsorship. This might not be the funniest quote of the year but it's up there! You don't "save up" for a show. The other problem is that you might believe that if they got the people that WE consider "Masters" that the show would be worth more to the networks but that's just not the case. Quote:
Auditions are a great way to find talent. What about announcing something in the major magic publications, asking for demo videos, or announcing it on the Café. I have BOXES of demo tapes and most are awful. It gets to the point where you have to hire people to sit through them to maybe find one worth pursuing. The talent bookers know the good acts. Some do the show and some don't, then they have to start going down the other list to fill in the blank spots. That's the reality of producing shows. You get the best people you can afford, then fill in the blanks with the B and C talent. Quote:
Producers aside, the show suffers from terrible cinematography, poor camera work on the streets, badly filmed angles, poor editing, and very poorly performed magic. In addition, the name "Masters of Illusion" doesn't fit the show. That's not what it is, so why call it that? Uh... because it will sell the show?? You can call your show "The greatest magic show in the world" if you think it will help you sell it. I'm sure all of us have a little hyperbole in our press to help us sell ourselves better. I think that with the people on here who have all of these great answers on how to produce the show better, we will be seeing a HUGE improvement in magic specials VERY soon! When your specials come on be sure and let us know so we can review them here.
Ray Pierce
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dearwiseone Inner circle Portland, OR 1143 Posts |
Hopefully we'll see some improvement in future shows!
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Ray, I always like the perspective you bring to the discussions. It's nice to know what goes on behind the scenes and into producing a show.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Plain and simple the show has some high points and many low points. If my job was producing I would know the ins and outs of it. In my past profession (Space and missile maintenance officer in the USAF) I was considered the best at moving large quantities of munitions to many different locations in a short amount of time. Many of my plans were bench marked for others to use to do the same. In 8 years I was the top officer in my field in the AF 2 years. No one has done that before. I was requested to move munitions based on my past merits. I tell you this to prove a point that if I was going to put on a show like this one I would hire the best producer out there. That producer should be the best at what he does. I would look into the producer of other successful magic shows and contact them. I would look at worked in each show and then I would improve upon it. When you go cheap the finished product in this case looks cheap. You get what you pay for. I have seen better shows get canceled long before this one should. To tell you the truth the MM shows are better produced. I watch the MM shows each week and TIVO the "Masters" of illusions. If someone would give me a task like this I know I could do a better job at it. But until that happens we will never know now will we. I understand that you can please all the people all the time but you should always aspire to try to. The show is lame with a few good acts.
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DanielGreenWolf Veteran user Waterbury, CT 363 Posts |
Ray, I have to completely second the fact that I loved your response. A good bit of insight. But then again, that's why I try to focus on the positive and what CAN possibly be changed.
Thanks for the post. It may not get through to everyone, but it was good never the less. |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Thanks guys! I really think most of you get it... but for the few others...
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On 2009-05-22 16:29, BYUDAD wrote: Great idea. Are you willing to go over budget about $180,000 (maybe pulling it out of your own pocket) to get the "best producer out there"? It's a matter of economics. What if the budget for this show just can't afford the best producer out there? What if you can't even afford the second or third best producer out there. We're not talking about the Oscars here... it's a magic show. I might want the best car in the world, I might even think I deserve it but I just can't afford it. I know this might be hard to understand when you're used to working for the military but these shows don't have unlimited government funding. You have a budget and you ave to fit everything in there... just like your household budget. Quote:
You get what you pay for Yes, and the network isn't paying that much. I'll tell you what. I'll give you $125 and I want you to build me a space shuttle and get the very best manufacturers in the world for it. I know you're really talented and smart so you should be able to do it by being really clever.... or then again maybe being clever is only good if you have a realistic budget to spend. Maybe I was being unrealistic asking you to build me a space shuttle for $125 because I have no knowledge about that industry. Since I don't know too much about it... I'll double the offer to $300 but I'm guessing it still won't happen. Quote:
I have seen better shows get canceled long before this one should. Better to you or the networks? Maybe what you consider better isn't the same thing as what the network executives consider better. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing that if the executives considered the shows were better, they wouldn't have canceled them. Maybe, just maybe... the shows that are still on the air are getting good numbers in relationship to the cost to the networks. That is what makes a successful show to them... not what we think about their ability or whether we consider the acts to be "Masters" or not. Quote:
If someone would give me a task like this I know I could do a better job at it. I'm really smart so I'm sure I could do a better job at handling munitions than you. I can tell just by thinking about it that it must not be too hard. I would just get the very best munitions handling things and the very best guys that pick them up I guess. How hard could it be? You just have to get them there without exploding or something... right? If you really want to produce a television show, no one is going to "give" you the chance. You have to take it. Go to the networks, syndication conventions, executives and have a meeting with them and just tell them what you've told us. Tell them that you have no experience with the media, zero idea of budgets, no knowledge of assembling a working production schedule, no idea how many people you need on the crew or how many hours of editing time to budget for, no sources for equipment, no studios, sound stage or production teams that you have a relationship with... then tell us what they say. I think it will be fun for everyone!
Ray Pierce
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
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On 2009-05-22 20:54, WDI Magic wrote: |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Lol... I'm just doing this because I'm on a 5 1/2 hour plane flight from NYC to LA with nothing else to do! (BTW David Blaine is sitting 4 rows in front of me, I'm biting my tongue!)
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On 2009-05-22 21:40, BYUDAD wrote: lol... Thanks, I worked there for years both as an act, an MC and redesigning their entire magic shop! Quote:
If you are going to set your gal at a sucky show then you got it with the "Masters" of illusions show. Quantity is not as good as Quality. Ok... hold on so I can write this down... Quantity is just as good as... nope, hold it... Quality is not as good as... shoot, this is tough!! Do you honestly think anyone starts out to make a "sucky" show? They do the best they can with the budget they're given. Maybe they should have shot the footage, edited it then said "You know what? It's just not good enough!" and cut bait and run losing about half a million dollars. Is that the answer you're proposing? Quote:
Repeat tricks, unprofessional acts and lame street magic. I totally agree Quote:
The budget restraints for the military are very tight. That is why they are always taking the lowest bidder. Kind of like this show put together by the lowest bidder. So you DO know how it works! lol... see, you knew more than you were letting on. It's the same in every industry, if you have the money you get a better product, plain and simple. Quote:
lol... there have been more space shuttles than good magic shows, it's evidently not that easy! Quote:
So you say. (my irony gets lost sometimes!) Quote:
Well from your defending and accepting of this show your standards seem a little low (IMHO) so I don't think it would be very easy for you. Maybe you need to read a little closer but I have never accepted this show nor will I ever defend it.. I have the same problems many do with it, but I'm realistic with my expectations based on the budget. I don't believe you are. I'm realistic based on years of producing shows and events. I'm returning from NYC at the moment having produced two days of live shows at the Time Warner Center that surpassed the expectations of everyone there. One of the spectators was a Tony award winning Broadway director who said it was one of the greatest shows he had seen. My standards are well beyond what you might expect... but I'm not saying that I can "do it better" out of lack of knowledge and experience. It's very easy to sit here and talk about how bad a show is and how no one knows what they are doing. I know most of the production team on the MOI show and I think they're doing the best they can with what they were given. Is it up to your standards? ... my standards? Do I accept it? Who cares until we try it ourselves. Quote:
I don't want to produce but if I did it would be better than this sucky show. lol... anyone want to take this one? I'm not even sure there is a logical response that will resonate with you based on this statement. I could be the best in the world at anything... I just don't want to. Ok... now it all makes sense.
Ray Pierce
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Donal Chayce Inner circle 1770 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-22 21:40, BYUDAD wrote: Dude, I share many of your sentiments, so this response is not in any way a defense of "Masters of Illusion." But with 27 years of experience as a network prime time television executive under my belt, including my current 12-year gig heading up business affairs for one of the industry's most successful independent production companies and having been the executive in charge of production for over 35 TV movies and miniseries, I have to tell you this: Based on what I've read in your posts, it's clear to me that you don't have a clue about any aspect of producing a television program. |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-05-22 23:22, Donal Chayce wrote: Hey Donal... lol... I'm going to have to accept this statement ONLY because you seem like you know what you're talking about.... but that's the ONLY reason!
Ray Pierce
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Magic1man New user 87 Posts |
I also thought the use of the body double appearing in the box was a strange choice. Exposing the use of a double or having any other character appear in a transposition effect seems illogical to me. I thought it added a confusing layer to the illusion, and planted the seed in the viewers mind of the use of body doubles!
Maybe he should have levitated the box and cut it in halve before the switch. |
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