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joshsmagic
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Quote:
On 2009-06-09 12:30, Lawrence O wrote:
Do you mean patter? or move?
If move, the choice is enormous
If patter, the one I use to get the people emotionally involved is "Have you already been in a position where you were on top and everybody tried to drag you back down into the crowd?"
Believe me it's hell of a hook up especially if you made them sign the Ambitious Card which now represents them.


Lawrence,
I meant both. That's a great idea for patter. I can see there being an enormous amount of suggestions for the little intro color change, but 1 or 2 recommendations would be helpful...

Josh
Nathan Kranzo
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Interesting to note. I remember a few years back I was in Japan performing with Alfonso, Dan Garrett, and Tommy Wonder. I was very jaded and would have been happy to never see another ACR. I was very tired having just performed several shows back to back and I was standing behind the crowd at the back of the hall. The crowd was all Japanese laymen and they were audibly gasping at someone's performance. It was Tommy Wonder performing his ACR. It was the coolest thing. In the middle of Tommy Wonder's routine I remember thinking "wow this is really cool". I didn't even realize he had suckered me into another ACR but it was so good and so dramatic. Of course he had a beautiful ending as well.

Tommy's performance of this classic was awesome.

All the best,

Kranzo
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joshsmagic
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On 2009-06-10 19:29, Nathan Kranzo wrote:
Interesting to note. I remember a few years back I was in Japan performing with Alfonso, Dan Garrett, and Tommy Wonder. I was very jaded and would have been happy to never see another ACR. I was very tired having just performed several shows back to back and I was standing behind the crowd at the back of the hall. The crowd was all Japanese laymen and they were audibly gasping at someone's performance. It was Tommy Wonder performing his ACR. It was the coolest thing. In the middle of Tommy Wonder's routine I remember thinking "wow this is really cool". I didn't even realize he had suckered me into another ACR but it was so good and so dramatic. Of course he had a beautiful ending as well.

Tommy's performance of this classic was awesome.

All the best,

Kranzo


Tommy Wonder was a big influence on me. Thanks for that note.
Chris SD
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Quote:
On 2009-06-10 19:29, Nathan Kranzo wrote:
Interesting to note. I remember a few years back I was in Japan performing with Alfonso, Dan Garrett, and Tommy Wonder. I was very jaded and would have been happy to never see another ACR. I was very tired having just performed several shows back to back and I was standing behind the crowd at the back of the hall. The crowd was all Japanese laymen and they were audibly gasping at someone's performance. It was Tommy Wonder performing his ACR. It was the coolest thing. In the middle of Tommy Wonder's routine I remember thinking "wow this is really cool". I didn't even realize he had suckered me into another ACR but it was so good and so dramatic. Of course he had a beautiful ending as well.

Tommy's performance of this classic was awesome.

All the best,

Kranzo


That's genuinely interesting for reasons I can't describe. Thanks for sharing.
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My pleasure! I suppose I should write more of that stuff down...
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edh
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Nathan, curious as to know whether he ended his routine with the ring box?
Magic is a vanishing art.
Ray J
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Pretty sure that Tommy Wonder always ended with the ring box. So dramatic and it added a wonderful element of suspense. I saw a video recently of Tommy doing his ACR routine about 20 years ago and it was pretty much identical to what he did on the L&L project. Patter and all, nearly identical. When it works, you don't need to change it!

As far as Josh's routine, I agree with most of what's been said. Regarding the length of the routine, I'm on the fence. I cannot get the layman's perspective back so I don't know what they would think. Is it too long for them? Not sure. I'm like Nathan, sometimes the mere mention of cards rising to the top makes me want to puke. Then I go and do it myself....go figure!

The top palm was lacking. I suggest a one-handed top palm similar to what I mentioned over in the Dai Vernon Top Palm thread. That way you can use your eyes AND your other hand to misdirect. Very powerful. Or do as suggested and go with the bottom palm. In card to wallet I tend to prefer the bottom palm myself. Depends on conditions.

By the way Josh, you can have your cake and eat it too. Work out several versions of ACR. Sprinkle your favorite moves amongst the routines. That way you can shorten the routine if necessary and if you are doing it table-to-table you can vary the sequences so that the moves don't get overexposed and you don't get bored. Just a thought. Daryl suggests this in his book and on his video, comparing the ACR routine to a jazz composition. You know how you will begin and how you will end but there can be a wild ride inbetween.

I also agree with the comment about conviction that the outjogged card is actually the selection. For a primer on the subject view Tommy Wonder's routine and see how he shows them that he really did put their card in the deck and it still rises. It seems so fair that the audience is really going nuts at that point. By the way, count the sequences in his routine. You might be surprised.

Good luck as you work on your routine.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
Nathan Kranzo
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Yes he sure did end with the ring box. I remember it clearly because just before he did it I thought to myself "ok lets see if it looks as good as it reads...and lets see if he can actually catch that corner in the box!". For those of you who have read or seen Tommy's routine you know what I'm talking about...and he nailed it. : )

Yes Tommy had some great moments in that routine that really hurt psychologically. The sequence you mention Tortuga is a perfect example. Its a routine worthy of much study.

All the best,

Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!

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joshsmagic
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On 2009-06-12 00:15, Tortuga wrote:
Pretty sure that Tommy Wonder always ended with the ring box. So dramatic and it added a wonderful element of suspense. I saw a video recently of Tommy doing his ACR routine about 20 years ago and it was pretty much identical to what he did on the L&L project. Patter and all, nearly identical. When it works, you don't need to change it!

As far as Josh's routine, I agree with most of what's been said. Regarding the length of the routine, I'm on the fence. I cannot get the layman's perspective back so I don't know what they would think. Is it too long for them? Not sure. I'm like Nathan, sometimes the mere mention of cards rising to the top makes me want to puke. Then I go and do it myself....go figure!

The top palm was lacking. I suggest a one-handed top palm similar to what I mentioned over in the Dai Vernon Top Palm thread. That way you can use your eyes AND your other hand to misdirect. Very powerful. Or do as suggested and go with the bottom palm. In card to wallet I tend to prefer the bottom palm myself. Depends on conditions.

By the way Josh, you can have your cake and eat it too. Work out several versions of ACR. Sprinkle your favorite moves amongst the routines. That way you can shorten the routine if necessary and if you are doing it table-to-table you can vary the sequences so that the moves don't get overexposed and you don't get bored. Just a thought. Daryl suggests this in his book and on his video, comparing the ACR routine to a jazz composition. You know how you will begin and how you will end but there can be a wild ride inbetween.

I also agree with the comment about conviction that the outjogged card is actually the selection. For a primer on the subject view Tommy Wonder's routine and see how he shows them that he really did put their card in the deck and it still rises. It seems so fair that the audience is really going nuts at that point. By the way, count the sequences in his routine. You might be surprised.

Good luck as you work on your routine.


I can agree with a lot of that, and I will do my experimenting. Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. I am a big fan on Tommy Wonder's ACR. His, Daryl's, Ammar's, and Kamm's are all influences on my thinking and structure of mine. Thanks again for the words of wisdom Smile
Ray J
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No problem. You are well on your way!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
Engali
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Honestly, I don't particularly like the idea of placing the AC, with the marked back, on to the top of the deck and then top palming it. Why risk astute spectators noticing, as you go for the pocket or place the deck down, that their card isn't on the deck anymore. Ya, they'll be misdirected, but we're talking ideal circumstances here. Not everyone will always be misdirected. Why not put the card in the middle of the deck and then side steal it?
ThomasJ
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Engali,

On the first page of this thread Jeff Stone suggested a bottom palm to avoid that discrepancy. Josh didn't seem to see a need for it and explained that his current method works.

I agree with you that a side steal or bottom palm is superior.
joshsmagic
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On 2009-06-12 14:57, Engali wrote:
Honestly, I don't particularly like the idea of placing the AC, with the marked back, on to the top of the deck and then top palming it. Why risk astute spectators noticing, as you go for the pocket or place the deck down, that their card isn't on the deck anymore. Ya, they'll be misdirected, but we're talking ideal circumstances here. Not everyone will always be misdirected. Why not put the card in the middle of the deck and then side steal it?


My current method does work. the card to wallet is a separate effect from the acr. By the time the acr is over everyone's attention is reacting to the routine. In live performance mode I top palm a lot cleaner now, than in the video, and when I place the deck back on the table it is placed face down. Thank you for your insight.
Back No 67
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Over all I can't really add anything to what has been said. I stopped reading about half way through when the arguments started breaking out. I do agree though, you can never stop learning. You're ACR is good, a nice routine of sleights the flow fairly well. It has already been said, but the end palm really needs a fix. You could probably even just wrist kill the deck to hide the removal of the top card.

I really like the Hindu control. I understand that you are learning of Kamm, but I think you should really develop your own style a bit more. You obviously have the technical skill to do it, just relax.

Ed
joshsmagic
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On 2009-06-13 05:44, Back No 67 wrote:
Over all I can't really add anything to what has been said. I stopped reading about half way through when the arguments started breaking out. I do agree though, you can never stop learning. You're ACR is good, a nice routine of sleights the flow fairly well. It has already been said, but the end palm really needs a fix. You could probably even just wrist kill the deck to hide the removal of the top card.

I really like the Hindu control. I understand that you are learning of Kamm, but I think you should really develop your own style a bit more. You obviously have the technical skill to do it, just relax.

Ed


Thanks a lot Ed, I really appreciate those thoughts. I am trying to develop my own style, I get that a lot from people who are familiar with kamm. Thanks again.
Engali
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On 2009-06-13 03:51, joshsmagic wrote:


My current method does work. the card to wallet is a separate effect from the acr. By the time the acr is over everyone's attention is reacting to the routine. In live performance mode I top palm a lot cleaner now, than in the video, and when I place the deck back on the table it is placed face down. Thank you for your insight.


It wasn't a question of whether or not it "works". You asked for advice on how your ACR can be *improved* and I gave it to you. It seems in a lot of ways your pretty stuck on doing your ACR the way you've been taught. Let me put it to you this way using your logic.

You say that the card to wallet is a separate effect. Byy the time you get to that effect people think it's over. Okay. Let's imagine that you didn't do the ACR at all and you really were doing a card to wallet by itself. Let's further imagine that, for whatever reason, you had the card signed front and back for the card to wallet. Now honestly, would you place the card on top of the deck and top palm it with a wrist kill to do the card to wallet? Do you really think that's the most convincing way to do a card to wallet? Imho, no. The initial conditions don't set up the climax.

The bottom line is that people may be *surprised* when they see the card in the wallet, but where did they see it last? On top of the deck. Their only logical conclusion is that you palmed it off the deck...and they'd be right. That's not magic. Losing it in the center would better to set up the impossibility of the climax. I think, in this case actually , shuffling it into the deck would be even better.

But hey, it's your ACR.
ThomasJ
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Quote:
On 2009-06-13 03:51, joshsmagic wrote:
My current method does work. the card to wallet is a separate effect from the acr. By the time the acr is over everyone's attention is reacting to the routine. In live performance mode I top palm a lot cleaner now, than in the video, and when I place the deck back on the table it is placed face down. Thank you for your insight.


I hope you mean you place it face up. Regardless, the fact of the matter is people won't forget that their card is on top. Even if the trick is "over," they don't magically lose their memory and forget where the card was last. Hopefully you've worked enough to realize that people are sometimes polite enough to not mention things they notice. When you pick the deck back up to leave or go into the next trick, the method is given away. Granted, some people might not notice, but just because your spectators don't say anything doesn't mean that they don't know what happened.

I provided an alternate approach to your method, which I posted on the first page of this thread. You asked for advice and multiple people have said a bottom palm or side steal would be better. Maybe you could try it out and see if it's any better, rather than discount it and justify the method you asked for advice on in the first place.

T.J.
Kevinr
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My personel favorite is the one that comes on the dvd "Born To Perform" by Oz Pearlmen... Simple... Effective... Easy to do...
DanGarrett
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I concur with Nate Kranzo's description of Tommy Wonder's performance of his ACR. He nailed it, of course. He always nailed it, and everything else. It was a pleasure to have known him in my lifetime, even back in the early days when he was simply known as Jos Bema...
Dan Garrett
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DanGarrett
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To make a comment on Engali's discussion of ending the ACR with card to wallet: I normally finish with the J. G. Thomson 'bent card' ending (bending a double). While the spectator is examining the bent card I cut the indifferent (still bent) card to the top. I add the signed bent card to the top and act like I'm going to shuffle again. I place the deck on the table as an afterthought (palming off the top card and leaving the bent indifferent card still on top) and ask the spectator to shuffle. Usually they shuffle without looking at the bent card, as they have just examined it. I load the bent card into my "Pasteboard Police" wallet (a Kaps/Balducci loader in a police badge wallet, with a real police badge!... sorry it's no longer available I believe). It comes out of the zippered compartment bent, and when the signed card is revealed the spectator's reaction is usually unprintable as they run through the deck to find the signed card that they are sure is still in there!
Now, I never perform ambitious card for magicians, only laypersons. Even though I use moves by Bill Kalush and Balthazar Fuentes in my routine that completely fool most magicians, they are still too 'jaded,' as suggested by my friend Nate, to waste the energy.
Recently seeing the performance of David Jade's "Pixel" makes me think that finish would be great for the times I'm not carrying the special wallet (and happen to be carrying a rubber band, which I usually am).
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