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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
A friend of mine and I were talking last night about the use of other people's material. I think the main set back with this is not understanding how/why things work.
I've found that a "clone" (or whatever you wanna call them) thinks of a routine as one, indivisible chunk of material most of the time...and that's the most fatal of all flaws for a performer. Each phase of the show, and even each effect within a show, needs to be analysed & revised depending on how it works within a show. Someone had already gone through that work on an established show. Traded good bits for weak ones, and made it work for them. Using that verbatim not only steals one's opportunity for personal growth, but cheapens the routine because the proper motivation for delivering lines & making moves is lost. Think of trying to sing another band's love ballad. Could you ever really get the feeling right? I'm not trying to fault anyone for using borrowed material (I'll let others work out their anger with that) I could care less honestly. I just wish that they could AT LEAST look at the routines objectively and TRY to approach them incrementally. The longer I'm in the magic game, the more I see it as a medium for interacting with people. The real magic being a connection I get to share with an audience. By using my own routines, I'm able to custom tailor that connection to the way I interact with people. They get to know ME, and not my version of someone else. Perhaps I'm alone on this, but my best performances are the ones where I do no acting. I'm just out there being myself, with my own routine, and interacting with people in a way that is natural to me. This was an evolution of course. I've tried using Whit Haydn's, Dave Williamson's, & Charlie Frye's material before. These guys are Masters. But, their bits never got the same reaction (externally & internally) in one of my performances as when I deliver my own routines. Just thought I'd share what was on my mind... |
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tabman Inner circle USA 5946 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-03 08:13, Chad wrote: Yep. Therein lies the secret. -=tabman
...Your professional woodworking and "tender" loving care in the products you make, make the wait worthwhile. Thanks for all you do...
http://Sefalaljia.com |
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ROBERT BLAKE Inner circle 1472 Posts |
Why are people using other peoples routines?
because they are lazy - don't have the stamina to go through the proces of creating. audience don't know the difference either because they don't see magicians as of often as we do. so we can compare both shows. I don't like it either. ian keable put it nicely in his book STAND UP. CHARACTER SITUATIONAL - if you do what suites your character in your situation nobody can steal it because they are not you. that's why things only work with certain people. |
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marty.sasaki Inner circle 1117 Posts |
Why do magicians insist on doing things that are their own? Actors usually do Shakespeare word for word? Musicians perform Bach by playing all of the notes, in the order written, that are on the page.`
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind. |
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ray raymond Veteran user 329 Posts |
Borrowed material should only be used as a place to get started. As time goes by and the performance muscle develops and grows the magician should also grow a sence of self,and as a result a unique routine should develop. That is how I see things. I also agree with what marty is saying because it is true. Classically trained actors and musicians are still seen as artist, though they all perform materil that is a few hundred years old. Both Rembrandt and Michaelangelo have paintings of the same biblically based subject matter and both are uniqe. I have also heard street musicains (guitar players) singing the same beatles and bob dylan covers, while only being a block or two away from each other. Yet no one says that they are stealing material.For that matter GAZZO surely is not the originator of the hat load. many people performed the cut in half lady illusion over the years? It has even been exposed on t.v. but is still an audience favorite. which leads me to belive the true art is in connecting with your audience and entertaining them. THE PERFORMER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE MATERIAL BEING PERFORMED.
just my thoughts on this |
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-03 14:38, marty.sasaki wrote: It's very different. What would happen if a comedian went on TV and did another guy's/girl's act? Or a dancer did another's choregraphed routine step for step (perhaps I've been watching Dancing With the Stars too much with the Mrs. ) I'm not talking about who's allowed to do a hat load, or who originated it. I'm talking about taking something off a DVD and using it line for line, or move for move. I agree with you Ray, it is a natural way to start. I even admitted in my above post to doing it on certain effects (Linking Ring, Ring on Rope & Multiplying Billard Balls to be exact). I'm not opposed to using other people's material. I'm not a purist. I simply think it does justice to the routine, the performer, and most importantly the audience if the magician looks into personalizing it as much as possible. This means thinking about the individual effects and their order, the patter, the audience involvement, the overall tone of the show, the pace & length...everything. Let's also get one thing clear. This topic is focussed on STREET PERFORMERS and not birthday, restaurant, stage etc. performers. Street performers often work in a rotation right along with a handful of other magicians. Our situation is different for that very reason. It's more like a comedy club atmosphere rather than an actor in a classic play or a musician doing a 4 hour set of covers. This is meant to be a constructive thread, not a destructive one. Borrowed material is an important topic to discuss. Especially amongst street performers that often work alongside one another. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Hey Chad, this is at least the 3rd thread you started on this subject this year. It sounds to me like you need to et something off your chest, maybe? What's really bugging you? Details, details!
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marty.sasaki Inner circle 1117 Posts |
Many magicians don't really understand what makes an effect stand out. I'm sure we have all seen our share of bad acts. It is foolish not to take advantage of the experience of someone else, especially if they are masters of magic. That's the best way to begin to understand what goes into the routine. Perhaps after you have enough experience, and obviously many of the folks here are experienced, you can skip this, but I think the level of magic would be better if folks started out with well established routines.
After performing these routines you should then change them to be your own, but it doesn't make sense to me to force yourself to be original right from the beginning. You really can't be that original without understanding unless you are wildly creative.
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind. |
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ROBERT BLAKE Inner circle 1472 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-03 14:38, marty.sasaki wrote: true. they also have a director or conductor who gives his interpretation of what he thinks the writer thoughts about the play or music piece. that's why the plays or music is never the same. Gazzo did the 6 oranges finale (and hat load) nowadays everybody does this with out thinking and thanking Gazzo for it. |
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MagiCol Special user Dargaville, New Zealand 929 Posts |
Quote from Marty: "it doesn't make sense to me to force yourself to be original right from the beginning. You really can't be that original without understanding unless you are wildly creative."
I'm with you on this part, Marty. As a beginner on the street I wasn't original with what I presented. But soon I was modifiying routines to be original/personal in my presentation of what I presented. I suggest that there are two extremes of. A. people who copy slavishly a routine or another person's presentation and B. Those who are completely original. And most of us fall somewhere along the line between the two. I think there would be a number of factors that affect how much we desire to change a routine towards making it our own, or invent our own routine. It's a personal response, no doubt. Whether our spectators recognize a fully copied routine or an altered or self-originated one depends on them personally and isn't what this thread is about [then why am I bringing up the topic from their preception??] Sometimes I come up with some imagined modification to a trick that has me a a bit staggered at the extent my envisaged changing of it. On the other hand, sometimes I have laboured over even figuring out how to follow instructions for a trick. Sometimes when things go wonky it's the start of a change to a routine that turns out better than the "original'.
The presentation makes the magic.
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ray raymond Veteran user 329 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-04 00:42, ROBERT BLAKE wrote: Robert, plays have a director. Theater groups have to purchase rights to perform the play publically they only have the script to go off of as written. the differences you will see is how different actors portray the charactors. what each actor brings to the charactor is different. orchestras have a conductor, his job is to keep every one together with the timing and if they are playing a copy righted piece of music I am not sure if they can change it all they have is the paper to go off of. with what we do we are our own actors, directors, writers, etc. If someone purchased a the Gazzo book don't they ahve a right to perform that script? Gazzo even says so in that book, that if you purchased it you have the right to perform it. I started out doing peter wardell, then gazzo, nick nickolas. But the more I go work the more it becomes me. people need to go out and fail as I have several times. through failure you can be born as a performer. |
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
I think you nailed the thought I was getting at Ray. Thank you for wording it better than I could.
My point is that we must not simply be the actor. We must be the director and the actor. A true clone forgets to include the "interpretive" aspect of the director's job. Chance, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please list links to other threads I've started regarding borrowed routines. Also, isn't the whole point of starting a thread to "get something off your chest" or seek clarification, share thoughts, etc? The act of starting a thread is the answer to your question. If the thread speaks to you, then it's written for your benefit. If it doesn't, then no worries. I am not a great performer. I've posted my youtube videos, you can judge for yourself. I do not claim to stand on any mountain of authority. I do however, feel that we as street performers had ought to abide by a few commonly accepted notions of the performing world if we are to be respected by our audiences, venues, and fellow performers. Working the street does not mean that ALL rules are off...just most of them Perhaps it's this theme of 'basic understandings' that you're refering to when you say I've been starting multiple threads on the same subject? If so, then yes. I think it's crucial to our lasting relationships with our audience, venue and each other. We must marry tradition with evolution, plagarism with originality, and individualism with coexistence. If not, then we will become our own cancer. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Seems to me ...if you read Steve Martin's book you'll see that his path was:
do borrowed stuff and suck. do borrowed stuff and get better. do some original stuff too. *lightbulb moment* throw out everything borrowed. much of his best best stuff. do only original stuff and suck. and there is very little of it. improve and learn to be creative. stick with it. be original and great!! The book was great, btw and highly recommend for any entertainer.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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ROBERT BLAKE Inner circle 1472 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-04 08:38, ray raymond wrote: ray thanks good post |
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Arkadia Special user Sweden, Sundsvall 866 Posts |
About borrowing, using and learning. I came from the juggling worlds where such things as routines exist - but not in the same way as in the magic world. No juggler what so ever would recomend anyone to start of with a famous routine. certain tricks maybe, but not entire routines.
When I started doing magic I liked the Cups and balls. I had some ideas, some bad, some good. All the advice I ever got from magicans was - do the Vernon routine untill you understand it! Seriously! I think this is wierd. "Do whatever feels right for you and work on it" is my advice. Magicians always over think things. It is all about the entertainment. I am certain that I would have had an original Cups routine four years faster if I wouldn't have worked on Vernons. A personal experience and perhaps example: I have been performing the linking rings for many, many years - and never have I performed a routine of someone else. And I started out with the rings shortly after I droped the cups because I found them boring. (Boring because I felt restrained) The cups seemed like something so complex, so difficult and so far away that I worked on the rings instead. The routine that I developed then I still do today. I believe that the same thing would have happned with the cups if I just keept going with my own ideas. (For the record: Now I do cups, lots of cups, but my own routine... with some bits of Vernon, Cellini, Kozmo (who's DVD is THE best) and Ammar, and me...) I don't know if this rambling means anything - just a thought about the whole thing. /Ark
Don't miss out on the great new mentalist magic: www.metalwriting.com
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-04 11:57, Frank Starsini wrote: Frank, This is an awesome recipe! I'll look for that book. My only contribution to that list would be: "While doing borrowed stuff, reflect on what works/doesn't work and why it works/doesn't. This will lead you to the next step: Doing borrowed work & getting better". Without that, a performer may never make it past level 1. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Ark
I like your rambling. I too from a circus back ground knows what you mean. M |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
I have no problem with borrowed or purchased stuff, as long as it's not "stolen" stuff. I'm of the opinion that not everyone is an inventor, and not everyone is a performer, although it's great that some magicians can be both.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Pokie-Poke Special user Bensalem, PA 883 Posts |
We are actors with out a director. So to mimic some one else is the easy way out.
Also, with out a teacher to point you in a direction, any direction, it is easy to get lost. If you want to be origanal, take acting classes, better still improve classes. DON'T tell them you do magic, just take the class. And as for thy why should I be origanal? the Beatles filled arenas. nearly 40 years after they called it quits they still get regular air time on the raido. How many bands cover the Beatles? Name them. How mutch air time do they get? The Beatles filled arenas. to be better than yourself you have to first be your self.
www.pokie-poke.com
The Adventure cont... |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Quote:
We are actors with out a director. And why don't we have a director? Or a manager? Or a coach/trainer/sound man/stage manager/etc... Why do we insist we have to do everything ourselves? Very few other artists fly solo like that, why should we? I've seen many an act ruined by the performer trying to work his "virtual sound man" or whatever rather than let the stage crew do it. They know the cues, it's their responsibility to run them, it's the performer's responsibility to be a performer and let the others do their jobs.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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