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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Although I agree in principle, I think it's more a matter of choosing your teachers. Some actually teach you. Others merely demonstrate what they do and leave you to fend for yourself. Those are the ones I stay away from, or just watch their "teaching" DVDs for my own entertainment.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts |
These days I create some of my own routines by watching several performer's DVDs on a certain effect. It is a fun way of learning.
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
That's interesting Dynamike.
I honestly do just the opposite. Once I've found an effect I like, I tend to avoid watching other people's take on it until I've gotten my own routine created and tested. For me, it's harder to be original if I've seen a handful of other performers using the same effect. I'm certain that it could be successful either way though. I'm not knocking your approach by any means. I'll also admit to having a substantial library of magic DVDs, tapes & books of my own. Like DaveV said above though, I aim at learning the "how to" when watching/reading them. |
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noble1 Special user 651 Posts |
If you are a confident, funny performer, you can buy a routine from Steve Spill, or Michael Fiinney or Fielding West, and use their routine as start point to launch your own creativity. Just like Cups workers can start with the work of Vernon or Cellini or cardmen, manip acts, bird acts, illusionists, they are to one degree or another standing on the shoulders of others. Very a few only read books and stay away from DVDs and watching other magicians perform.
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
I think many here would be surprised to learn just how many "greats" borrowed or bought there signature material. As the old saying goes, "professionals borrow, amateurs steal." How many illusions or tricks has Copperfield actually invented from scratch? Did Mac King really write all his stuff, or does he pay someone?, etc., etc.
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Wayne Whiting Regular user 181 Posts |
Just got Stand Up today in the mail. In the opening pages he posts a warning:
"The successful completion of this book has been wholly dependent on the goodwill of a number of magicians who have given me permission to quote both from their own writings and also, occasionally, from their act. I would stress that in no way does the inclusion of any lines or bits of business from the performers mentioned constitute permission for any of their material to be used by anybody else apart from the originator. Saying you read about it in this book will not be accepted as a legitimate excuse, reason or justification for stealing the fruits of their creativity." |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Question:
Did you know of that clause before you bought the book? Was there a warning on the outside not to "break the seal" if you do not agree? Then, regardless of their intentions to protect the work of their contributers it carries absolutely no weight. I like what they're trying to do, just that they could have found a more effective way of doing it.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
I know what you mean Dave. I just love those messages on the back of sales receipts that try to limit how you can make returns, etc. If I didn't agree to it in advance, then I didn't agree to it.
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
If you read The Comedy Bible by Judy Carter, or any number of other instructional stand-up comedy books available at any bookstore, or on amazon, you will see examples of work from Jay Leno, Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy, Robin Williams, Jerry Seinfeld, for INSTRUCTIONAL purposes. AND there isn't any clause or warning on the outside not to use material used for instruction by these stars. Dave, do you really think if an example of a certain type of joke, or construction, is quoted from a working performer, as an example for instructional purposes in a book, that that gives you permission to do that person's act?
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
No, not really. But on the other hand, a hidden disclaimer has no legal weight if I chose to use something from it.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
Hidden disclaimer or not, are you saying that if a joke by Jerry Seinfeld is used as an instructional example in an educational book on Stand-up that it's okay for you to use that joke in your act if you chose to?
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
I didn't say that, only that there are right ways and wrong ways to protect material.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
Published material is protected by copyright. Beyond that Dave, please tell us what are the "right ways" to protect material you are talking about? No disclaimer or warning on the outside of a book provides protection. There aren't any comedy police tracking joke thieves.
Readers who take copyrighted material from popular performers - like Jerry Seinfeld and others in the Comedy Bible book mentioned earlier - that are used as examples, and are intended for instructional purposes to educate readers in comedy writing technique, are plagerising. The difference really is this: If you chose to steal a Jerry Seinfeld joke from a book that uses that joke as an instructional example of a writing priciple, a certain amount of the public will know you are a thief doing a Jerry Seinfeld joke. If you steal from a book that uses Mac King as an instructional example, fewer will know, but it doesn't make you any less of a thief. Certainly pros use material written by others and always have. If someone wants to buy a book of jokes to use in their act, or full blown routines, even proven professional routines complete with all the props for that matter, those are also available. But beyond copyright there aren't any "right or wrong ways to protect material." There are only right and wrong performers. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Thanks for taking interest in my youtube clip.
Shame you did not show your interest on my fread. I Have been busking for 18yr now, I work 5 to 6 days a week. I have no credit card or debit card for that matter, my whole in the wall is a gap that I see on the streets. The show you see me working is one of the toughest you can work and this is why. It is mid week office workers who have a short break from work. My job is to make them to forget time while their being entertained and part with some cash. My C&B routine has changed a number of times to suit my audiance. This show is one of my first I have done back in the Uk after three years in Spain. Now I have a number of shows under my belt. My escape show is my first that I work. A medicine man show. Bizzare show, so on. One may change their show a week or tow ago, but the real test is time. Will that show sustaine them in one years time. Will it take around the world several times. Can they survive and more save make money, not use their plastic freand bla, bla. I have seen copycats none of them have real bolocks to survive as a busker. Borrowed materal is shared, ie hat lines odd jokes so on, things that fill your hat. For example, you saying my show is only 5min long is a line I have used for years. I know no one that repeats that in a show untill I watched your youtube clip. Does that make you a copycat NO not in my book. Did you borrow it from me, I don't know where you got it from, do I care, no. Does it matter if you understand the socialogy behind it HELL YES the socialogy behind this is my greatest effect yet. But to steal a man show word for word step by step is whole diffrent ball game. That is not sharing that is feft, worst if you don't understand the socialogy of that show of years of experiance of a master. Hope that helps Mario |
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
Msmaster & Dave,
I appreciate the theme of your posts and the information you share in them. You are both correct. However, I think that as street performers, we're not as worried about the letter of the law per say. It's not that I think we're a lower class of people, it's just that we aren't on TV, or playing to audiences that have already bought a ticket. So, lawsuits on copyright infringement are going to be few and far between. Perhaps we (at least I am) are more concerned with: 1) ethics of using another performer's material and 2) the undeniable fact that using borrowed material keeps you from working on your own material. I was very happy to read that this thread is relating our work to stand-up comics instead of stage actors. I think that's an evolution of the thread in and of itself. Stage actors are part of a production that has purchased performing rights to perform a play, while stand-ups live and die on stage by what they've created themselves (very often without producers and directors I might add). That's a big difference. It also works as a decent analogy for illustrating both the left and right sides of this topic. Again, ours is a third option somewhere in the middle. I guess I'm attempting to pull us closer to the stand-ups is all...or at least get those that borrow whole routines to think a bit more about those routines and what is/isn't working for them. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Chad you lost me their, that makes as much sence to me a Gordon Brown makes a leader of the UK.
PS my reference to Master is not to my self by the way it is a reference to a Master who has had his show nicked. Mario Posted: Jun 9, 2009 7:15am I read your thread a few times now and I think yep. On the other hand seeing yu clip on youtube, what marks you as different? |
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
Thank you for the reply Mario. I think we were posting at the same time as my above post. Your show rocks Mario. It's obvious watching it that you've got the timing & motivations worked out perfectly. And thank you for adding your observations above on this topic.
I gave you credit for the countdown on this thread. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=0#8 As well, I also mentioned that I've been advertising my "5-minute show" as such for years now. I have an old sign that I used to use which reads "You've always got 5 minutes for a good laugh" Adding the countdown was new this year. This past weekend I dropped it for a different line regarding the beginning of the finale. It seems to work better in my show. Anyway, I appreciate your input here. Posted: Jun 9, 2009 7:22am Whoops, I was creating a new post while you got those last 2 in. My show is different because I wrote the whole thing from start to finish. Yes there are a couple of (perhaps 2) instances where you'll hear a line from somewhere else. But that's simply a hat line...not a routine. I think that's significantly different than what we're talking about. But maybe not! I'm always open to talking about my show. I'm my own favorite subject |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
I am a juggerler, now feel hear do you think this is an new story?
You have a ten foot unciycle and you juggle, are you now a copycat. I have been on TV a number of times I have performed a number of tricks including C&B. For years my trade mark was dippy duck, as it was for Tomy Copper. I have seen hundreads of Juggerlers busk on the streets at one time I was triping over them. That is why I stopped juggerling and got into magic, now it revolving around again. The School of busking wants to lead the way in teaching indervuduals to be just that. For another example three pee shell game is that indervidual trick, hell know. I performed that for years as a crowd puller. Is it mine hell no. |
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FunTimeAl Special user 987 Posts |
OK, now I'm lost. I'm not suggesting that each performer invent his/her own effects. It's the routines that we're talking about here.
As for jugglers. I started out as a juggler too. I just like magic better, so I made the switch. They too can perform the exact same effects and use different routines. Same difference in my mind. I hope the school of busking goes a long way into teaching how to construct a routine. That would be a great service to our community. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Yes we are posting at the same time.
Any way got sucked into this thread by my own appertite, promissed my self to stay clear of them. So I best go M |
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