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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » JE4: Jheff's Elegant Fourth Dimensional Telepathy (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

rickreation
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Hello all!

I have been seriously considering purchasing Jheff's "JE4". 4th Dimensional Telepathy and it's variations have been, along with Q & A, among my favorite effects in mentalism since I first read Phil Goldstein (Max Maven's) variation (I believe it was called Middle Telepathy) in the Color Series. I have read and reread Bob Cassidy's Journey into the 4th Dimension, as well as Artful Mentalism of course, and so you'd think I'd have enought 4DT for a life time.

However, it sounds like Jheff has done a lot of work (improvement?) on this routine and I was curious to know if any of you were able to read this? I am particularly interested in what contributions/improvements/etc. he makes to the routine, and also what insight he has on the performance of this routine and mentalism in general.

If it weren't for my extremely limited budget as a volunteer this summer this $100 limited release would be a no brainer, but as funds are currently "dry" I need to prioritize my purchases.

Thank you all for the insight, and I look forward to reading your replies.

My best,



(P.S. Any other recommendation for books on this and similar routines (e.g. Telepathy Plus - which reminds me I need to buy Stuart Cumberland's book too!) would be appreciated.)
Seth speaks
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I probably don't know all the versions of this, but I know a few, and Jheff's is my absolute favorite. I will admit I have not performed this yet, but his book is very clear and fully illustrated with photos of him doing it, so it is easy to see how it plays. He beautifully streamlines the effect, so that it is a bit simpler for an audience to follow. It is also easier to do, and gets rid of a few inconsistencies and tricky setups that you are probably familiar with. He also discusses how to easily handle several unlikely problems that may come up. If you want to perform this effect, or something similar, I think you can't do much better than Jheff's. 4DT is a wonderful routine, and JE4 is a definite improvement, to my mind at least. It's a terrific investment--a highly practical, audience tested interpretation of this classic effect. Also, he had limited quantities printed, and I think once they're gone, they're gone. Highly recommended.

Seth
LLL
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Not got or read the book, but have seen JHEFF performing it at the magic castle. Came across brilliantly, certainly was well recieved by the rest of the audience.
The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.
Sven Rygh
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I really am too lazy and not so competent to writing good, structured reviews, like what among other's my friend Mormonyoyoman does
Let my comment this time be in the form of an email I sent Jheff about 6 mnths ago about his product.
Some of it is edited, not to reveal Jheff's methods.

Quote:
Jheff

I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you before.

I want again to stress the fact that I find JE4 very well thought of, and something I am sure others will use with pleasure, but this isn't for me.

As I understand, there were two main points for you when you created this.
-Secure that the procedure appared the same for all 3 envelopes
-Being able to give the cards back to the participants immediately.

I have been doing the 3 envelopes test for years and years from Annemann's originals to some of the other variations.
It has been placed in my act in ThoughtScan or other Q&A routines' place second to the last, when time, place or other cirkumstances not has been right for a longer Q&A routine.
For the time beeing, I use Cassidy's routine. Not the one with the Shaxton flap, but the one from his book, with the tucked down flap on the gimmicked envelope, and I have done so since I first learned it.
Tomorrow I might do something else, if I find that better for me.

Let me say that I never have agreed with Cassidy's insisting of that the cards, and in his case also the envelopes must be given back to the participants.
I can understand the need to do so in situations where you perform for magicians though, but not before an audience of lay people.
Note, I never perform for magicians, in magic clubs and the like.
If it should happen to be a magician among the otherwice lay audience, I believe it not very likely that he would reveal the methods to the other spectators

I have never, repeat never been asked to give the cards or the envelopes back, and I believe that the way they are handled (among others by ripping up the last envelope and throwing it away) leeds to no interest.
After all, you write something on your pad, stick that under your left arm, open the envelope and read what the participant wrote (and get it confirmed), put that away, and then turn the pad to show what you wrote.
The revealing of the thought of word/design overshadows imo by far the interest for the cards/envelopes, and they are instantly forgotten.

Even though I do this effect from stage and in front of very often a couple of hundreds or more, I move around in the audience during this, and have never thought of doing everything the same way.
I simply don't believe that the spectators are able to spot that one not does!

Using the ...EDIT...is clever thinking. However, it limits the first spectator's ....EDIT.....
I don't want that limitation.

Being alone on stage when opening the envelopes could cause suspicion! The audience can not follow what I actually do, and due to that, I find it important to have the judge with me there.
When I am at the last envelope and the design, I just send him along with a pad and marker to give to the third partcipant.
When he draws it again, it is from his place in the room.

It is important that you know that I am a "belt and suspender" kind of guy.
Everything I can control will be controlled, - not just once, but several times.
To illustrate, when I am off to a show and have my bag prepared and packed, I always open it and go through the stuff once more.
Now and then twice!

Due to that I also try to avoid all kind of sleights and moves or other things that can go wrong during the show.
(You even mention a few in your book)
Sure, I do use ....EDIT..., but only ...EDIT..., and only when really neccesary.

So that's it, this is my thoughts on why I will not use your take on the three envelopes.
As mentioned earlier, I concider your take on this as good and well thought of, - it simply doesn't suit me and my style.


Kind regards

Sven


As it probably comes through in what I wrote, I don't find Jheff's take on the 3 envelopes effect very practical, - at least not for me.

What not is mentioned, is that Jheff mention in the documentation that he did this routine at The Magic Castle and fooled people "in the know"

Another thing I didn't mention, is that this documentation is in the, now so popular, "Priced to keep the curious and secret seachers away" category

I advise you to compare Jheff's documentation with the original, other classics, and not at least Bob Cassidy's many takes on this.(See Cassidy's treaty on The 3 Envelopes, priced at 30$)

If you look for a trick to fool your buddies in the magic club with, and do have 100$ you don't know what to use on, Jheff's routine might interest you.

Sven
Magical Dimensions
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This sounds like something that could really be used. I am always looking for a better Fourth Dimensional routine, because I think it is one of the most powerful things a mentalist can do.




Ray
Sven Rygh
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Oh, - and I forgot,
Even though the documentation is autographed, numbered, and is of a limited release, it comes with neither a gold stamp nor an embossed logo or anything like that.

Sven
Torkova
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Sven,

Thanks for a very informative response. The 3 envelope test ( I use another simpler version of Cassidy's) is my favorite and I've been doing it for a couple of years now. However, I don't recall him insisting on giving the cards/envelopes back. On his original video he does it for the first one but then admits he rarely does it for the others. My experience is the same as yours and probably for anyone else who actually performs 4DT; that no one cares about the cards and envelopes once they are opened and read. I've found that even giving the first billet back to the spectator is rarely desired by them so I rarely do it.

Best regards,
Torkova
Sven Rygh
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Torkova

Quote:
I don't recall him insisting on giving the cards/envelopes back

Well, if not insisting, he at least advises to(in his book), and as mentioned, an advice I do not follow

Sven
rickreation
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No Gold stamp? No gold emboss?

I spit at your limited release! Smile

In all seriousness though, I think having the cards handed back, or at least verified, adds a logical disconnect. Some might call it running when you're not chased, but I think it helps when people are backtracking after the show. Just to keep the mystery alive.

My best,

Rick
Lior
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I have never seen Jeff's routine so what I have to say is just in general.

I have found out that many people are trying to "improve" things that don't need to be improved.
Most of the time the improvment are bad...

If you are doing the 4DT and you are happy and your AUDIENCE are happy , thenyou need anythibg new.
If you are doing it and your audience are not happy, then you are doing something wrong, because there are many others that frick their audience.
Ask a performer who does it for real audience. He will give you all the answers.

Lior
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Torkova
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Well said, Lior.

Torkova
rickreation
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Quote:
Ask a performer who does it for real audience. He will give you all the answers.


Like... Jheff? Smile
rickreation
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Oh and I gotta add, Sven, I always enjoy your reviews and comments (although I thought your "Gold Stamping" remark was a bit sophomoric), but I ought to mention that The Magic Castle is not a magic club, although it hosts one. The majority of audiences there are "upper class" lay people.
Silvertongue
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Quote:
On 2009-06-07 15:53, rickreation wrote:
Quote:
Ask a performer who does it for real audience. He will give you all the answers.


Like... Jheff? Smile


I also saw him perform this at the Castle. Brilliant...
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

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Sven Rygh
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Quote:
On 2009-06-07 16:28, rickreation wrote:
The Magic Castle is not a magic club, although it hosts one. The majority of audiences there are "upper class" lay people.

I know, put there is also crowded with magicians among the audience.

Sven

Thanks for the kind words, btw
rickreation
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I've decided. I'm definitely getting this.
Lior
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Quote:
On 2009-06-07 15:53, rickreation wrote:
Quote:
Ask a performer who does it for real audience. He will give you all the answers.


Like... Jheff? Smile


as I wrote: My post is in general.
Ask someone that you know and get money for what he does.
I don't know Jeff so well.
I think he is an honest delear

Lior
Talk To The Screen. The best effect for professionals
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Tony Iacoviello
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We all approach things differently, and while some aspects of some routines and methods are not necessary for some in their performing conditions, they may be necessary and important to others.

For me, in the parlor/small party environment, having the option of being able to return the envelopes and cards, or being able to leave them at the table when I leave is an important consideration.

And while I do agree with my friends here who have stated that if something works, there is no reason to fix it, I also feel that having alternative methods and the ability to perform “themes” in a variety of performing conditions is important. I also feel that seeing how others have taken pieces in other directions can help inspire us to grow in our own work.
These are the only reasons I really purchase anything in the magic and mentalism market.

Having read the comments made here on this thread about the actual product, and removing personal opinion based on specific performance conditions and perception of the audience, it appears that Jheff has added additional options for this theme. His additions are important considerations for me, and I thank those who have posted here letting us know.

This is definitely on my list of wants!


Tony Iacoviello
Jheff
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I thank Sven for sharing his thoughts on JE4. I know it doesn't suit his style and he feels it is overpriced. I certainly can't and won't argue with that opinion (it is his opinion, after all), but I'd like to step in and address some statements in the review that I feel are factually incorrect.

Those who have read my many reviews and essays know that I certainly discourage the "running while being chased" thinking, especially in mentalism. In this case, though, I WAS being "chased" and I made it a point to relate the story in the manuscript. You see, it's important to me to listen to my audiences afterward. When I first added 4DT to my act, I didn't return the billets. Like Sven, I didn't care because my audiences seemed not to care and the effect went over well. But, after some of my performances, when I overheard a discussion by, and were told by, laymen audience members (NOT magicians) about the one-ahead principle, I knew I had to alter the handling to allow for the return of the billets. I had to do this so that laymen could not backtrack easily.

I can't say what type of audiences Sven performs for in Norway, but in California, there seems to be an uncomfortable amount of laymen who know the basic principles of mentalism. It's not a large percentage by any means, but it's more than it used to be thanks to the Internet and a certain masked individual.

Sven also suggests that using a particular move on the first billet to gain information is limiting. You can certainly have a participant write down two pieces of information, perhaps three depending on your billet size. On the other hand, this routine was designed to be a shorter version of a standard Q&A act and, by its very nature, one would want only one piece of info at most for time purposes. If one wants to use a longer set, there are other Q&A routines. Therefore, under the conditions of this routine, one piece of info is not limiting at all, especially because what type of info you ask for is limited only by one's imagination.

As to the high price, my reasons for such are in the very first paragraphs of my ad blurb. It was not priced high to keep out the merely curious, as Sven claims. It was priced high because it's currently part of my act and I don't plan on taking it out anytime soon. It's worth far more to me now than $100, plus I throw in a free 30 min. coaching call (which is usually longer because I have a hard time talking to anyone for just 30 minutes about mentalism). However, I respect Sven's opinion that it is overpriced and his reasons for it being such as certainly valid.

Finally, the limited edition does not have a gold stamp or embossed logo. I apologize for making such a serious oversight that I understand will affect one's opinion of the material within. For those feel that this limited edition is not complete without them, I will cheerfully provide one or both upon request at no additional charge (except you may have to wait a bit for me to find them).

In any case, for those who'd like to see me perform it, and are in the Los Angeles area, I'll be performing JE4 all this week at the Magic Castle from June 15-21. If you're not a member of the Castle but would like to come, please e-mail and I'll be happy to make arrangements.
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Jamie D
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This souds great, I'm actualy planing on performing Bob cassidys routine from the artfull mentalisim next week. The only reason I havent performed it is because of what has all ready been posted, I was afraid of them knowing the one ahead. I've got my presentation down and am ready to take the plunge and am now quiet confident, but if all else fails this sounds quiet nice.

Daren
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