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fridoliina89
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Hello everyone!

Right now I'm watching Carney on palming, and in his explanation for Dai Vernons top palm he says that you should use your third finger to get the card to go into your hand. I have always used my pinky and I think that it is easier to make the card go straight into your palm when you use the pinky.

Is there any good reason for using the third finger?
Ray J
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Use whatever works for you. There is no right or wrong. Perhaps Vernon found it easier for the card to pivot squarely into his right palm with the third finger. I'm sure that he experimented with the pinky. Is it also possible that the movement of the pinky is slightly more noticeable than the third finger? Perhaps. Try it in the mirror or on video and see what difference it makes, if any.

Your post indicates that you use your pinky successfully. Why change anything?

Good luck!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
Donal Chayce
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Quote:
On 2009-06-07 13:50, Tortuga wrote
,,,Perhaps Vernon found it easier for the card to pivot squarely into his right palm with the third finger. I'm sure that he experimented with the pinky.


The Professor did more than experiment with using his pinky. In "Revelations" his instructions) which include photographs) for doing the palm include using the pinky.
Donal Chayce
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A correction: It's "Revelation", not "Revelations", and please excuse the punctuation blunder in my previous post. I wrote my it while waiting to board a flight in Phoenix. Mea culpa.
JasonEngland
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Is it possible Carney was talking about a palm derived from the Erdnase Top Palm (first method)? If so, then the third finger from the left hand would be used to push the palmed cards upwards and into the receiving right hand.

If however, he's talking about the Vernon Top Palm, more commonly known as "Topping the Deck," then I see no reason why the third finger of either hand needs to be mentioned.

Just a thought.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
fridoliina89
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Hi,

It is Vernons top palm "topping the deck" I am talking about.

In the explanation he tells you to press down on the corner of the card with your ring finger to make the card go into your palm and then he shows you how to do it.

To me it feels better to do it with the little finger because then it goes right up in the palm, but if I'm doing it with the third finger I have to do some extra movment with the hand to get in in the right position.
Medifro
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Quote:
On 2009-06-08 06:33, JasonEngland wrote:
If however, he's talking about the Vernon Top Palm, more commonly known as "Topping the Deck," then I see no reason why the third finger of either hand needs to be mentioned.

Just a thought.

Jason

I agree with that, though I gave it more attention when R. Paul Wilson mentioned it in his Royal Road DVD series as a tip from Vernon. If its intention is to minimize finger movement, you could do that with the pinkey.

~ Feras
fridoliina89
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So is John Carney explaining it wrong?
DanielvdHaar
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Hmm well Carney also tells us to push the top card over to the right, while it's much more economic and easier to push to card and let it pivot on the right hand middle finger. Perhaps this has something to do with it, because when I perform it the top card clears the top end of the deck by only the width of a border. And mr Carney has it off about 3 borders?!
Ray J
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Just checked Further Inner Secrets of Card Magic and find on pp. 35 a description of The Top Palm. It seems clear that the pinky is used, along with adjacent fingers to lever the card into the palm. In Card College 2, pp. 273, 274 is a good description of a top palm with the pinky being the prime motivator to lever the card up. The middle and ring finger of the left hand then push the card farther up into the palm. Personally, I can generally get the card into a full palm without assistance of any kind from the left fingers.

Also, for those interested, a nice variation of a one-handed top palm can be found in Jerry Mentzer's Card Cavalcade pp. 49 within the description of an effect titled 'Quick Reverse' by Eddie Fechter. I use it as it is sure-fire and the card really cannot 'leak' if executed properly.
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Engali
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Quote:
On 2009-06-08 14:44, DanielvdHaar wrote:
Hmm well Carney also tells us to push the top card over to the right, while it's much more economic and easier to push to card and let it pivot on the right hand middle finger. Perhaps this has something to do with it, because when I perform it the top card clears the top end of the deck by only the width of a border. And mr Carney has it off about 3 borders?!


In On Palming he actually doesn't say to push the top card to the right for Topping the Deck. He tells you to do something different which I found was much more economical.
Maybe this is why he says to use the 3rd finger of the right hand to pivot the card up, since it does put the card in a slightly different position than when it's pushed in a NE direction. Just a guess.
Ray J
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Very likely. I don't push with the thumb either. Why move the thumb when the deck is going laterally into the receiving hand. You can do the preliminary work in one motion. Economy of motion, motivated, works for me.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
walid ahumada
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I do push with the thumb, and use the left pinky to lift the card. why? because I do like ARTURO DE ASCANIO.
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Lawrence O
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Walid,
By referring to Arturo, you keep on speaking to my heart.

As a general comment, in all these discussions let's remember that "rules are done for the obedience of the fools and the guidance of the wise". What masters teach us are advice and not instructions. If they work for us let's use them, if not let's follow what seems more natural to the audience as opposed to more natural to the performer.

John Carney is supplying tips not instructions...

The top palm in the Ron Bauer lecture notes still seems to me to be the most invisible. Card replacement is a true misdirection subject: when we take the deck back, what do we need to take the deck for; to be able to do what? This is what covers the replacement more than any technical subtlety (that I do not despise in any way). This is Arturo's teaching on misdirection: one glance, one main move, one secret move necessary TO BE ABLE TO do the main move. Give a glance at something where you will need the deck for as your hand takes up the deck TO BE ABLE TO do whatever your glance suggested.
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Lawrence O
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By the way does someone remembers from Marlo without tears in 1983 p 248 and 251, the Wrist Turn Palm and (even better if situation allows) the Turnover Palm. Thanks to Jon Racherbamer for his sharing at the time.
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DanielvdHaar
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While scrolling through the Vernon Chronicles I found a really nice touch which enables you to execute the Vernon palm as soon as the hands come together. It might even be quicker then performing a one hand top palm.
Medifro
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Quote:
On 2009-06-09 10:57, Lawrence O wrote:
the Wrist Turn Palm and (even better if situation allows) the Turnover Palm. Thanks to Jon Racherbamer for his sharing at the time.

I use the turnover palm. I didn't like it at first but with playing with it, there are some interesting applications.

The idea is to turnover the card, palm and instantly have the right hand do some action ( hold the deck, gesture .. etc ), from there you can smoothen it out with other actions. I like showing the card, turn it over and instantly cut the deck to the table. You can hand the deck out too.

Very underused palm if you asked me.

~ Feras
Lawrence O
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Ron Bauer's action top palm is taught by Steven Youell and it's possible to see him performing it on his site: it's extremely efficient and to my opinion the most deceptive.

Now even if the technique for holding a card in the hand after a Top Palm is the same, why should we have only one approach to get there (and only one approach to place it back). On the contrary, let's use Marlo's and other approaches in accordance with the effects, the performing circumstances and the hand positions as the previous stage in the trick is reached.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
motown
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Where can you get Ron Bauer's lecture notes?
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
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Ray J
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Lawrence O, you are indeed correct. One of the most interesting things I noticed about Daryl's Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler was the different approaches he offered to several effects. For those who don't have the book, basically he described multiple ways of achieving the same effect. Each had its strengths given the circumstances. So I agree, let's have several methods and use the one that fits the working conditions and audience the best.

As an example, when working for laymen you might use a particular handling then change it up when working for magicians or more astute laymen. Another example is using an in-the-hands faro shuffle when there is no table and then using a tabled faro when one is available. The tabled faro lends itself more to gambling demonstrations than the in-the-hands version, is more elegant (my opinion), etc. But if you are doing walk around and wish to perform an in-the-hands Triumph routine, you are all set with the in-the-hands faro.

Just a couple of quick examples of when it pays to have several options at your disposal.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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