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Jamie_H New user Louisiana 65 Posts |
So, I just finished reading "The Secret Life of Houdini" Book. The CIA angle didn't intrigue me all that much, but many other aspects of his life did. This is the first Houdini book I have read, so take that in mind when reading the following questions.
1) Is it a fairly common theory that maybe the spiritualists could have been behind his death (either the "stomach puncher" was an agent of theirs, or Bess and Houdini was poisoned as is hinted in the book? 2) What did Arthur Conan O'Doyle have to gain by being such a fervent spiritualist? Why did he want to believe so bad he would ignore Houdini's warnings and fraud exposures? 3) Are there any films of Margery? This book painted Houdini's life to me as quite tragic...anyone feel this way as well? |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1616 Posts |
1) No
2)What does anyone have to gain from religious belief? Because that was what Spiritualism was to A.C. Doyle. 3) I don't know I think there are much greater tragedies in magic than Houdini
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
1) Not widespread, but it HAS been put forward by a number of writers, including escape artist Norman Bigelow in his book, Death Blow.
2) As I understand it, Sir Arthur's son was a casualty of WWI; reason enough to want communication with the dead to be a reality. 3) I know of no footage.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Jamie_H New user Louisiana 65 Posts |
Thanks for the comments, guys. I appreciate the discussion.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
One important thing to bear in mind is that there is absolutely NO way that Houdini could have been a member of the CIA.
The CIA did not exist until 1947.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
The foremost expert on Houdini is Patrick Culliton. He's online as houdinisghost
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Jamie_H New user Louisiana 65 Posts |
Bill, I'm sure I misspoke using the term the CIA...I was referring to the "spy" angle in the book.
Pete, thanks for the info. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That's okay. I haven't read the book in a while.
It was not unusual for various people in the government to debrief Americans who had been overseas for a while, especially in Germany, Austria and Russia. Houdini was a good observer. He could have picked up all sorts of info. Whether he was an intentional "spy" or an observer, he very well may have given some of our authorities information that helped with WW I.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
Patrick ususally spends more time overthe Genii Forum or Handcuffs.Org forum. When it comes to Houdini, he's the man.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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Eric Fry Regular user 191 Posts |
A book by a Canadian freelance writer, since deceased, named Don Bell covers Houdini's death in detail. It is titled "The Man Who Killed Houdini."
Intriguingly, it shows that Houdini may have been physically assaulted three times in Montreal that week, although none of the attacks are linked to spritualists. It wouldn't be beyond them to beat someone up, but they could hardly expect to kill a person that way unless the beatings were far more severe. He died of peritonitis after his appendix burst. The attackers couldn't anticipate that their punches could lead to this result, and it's not certain that punches can tear an appendix anyway. Doyle believed in many things that are not true, such as the existence of fairies. A good biography will give you perspective on him. He didn't become a spiritualist for personal gain. He was sincere, though deluded. True believers always have an excuse when a medium's fraud is revealed: she's a fraud but others aren't. Or, she cheated that time but not all the time. Some prominent scientists of the time believed in communication with the dead. Even smart people can be unreasoning, and you can't reason with unreasoning people. I don't know that Houdini's life rises to the level of tragedy, but there was sadness there. He and his wife were tempermental and childish, and she became a heavy drinker, suggesting an unhappy life. They seem to have had fantasies of having children, although I don't know why they didn't adopt if they felt a hole in their lives. He seems to have felt that being an entertainer wasn't important enough, and there's a little bit of pathos in his attempts to portray himself as a scholar and writer, neither of which he quite was. Conversely, you could say he triumphed over deep poverty, child labor, lack of education, and the dislocation of immigration. He provided for his family. He did real public service in his exposes of spiritualism, although in his usual money-making, self-aggrandizing way. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Houdini may not have been aware that he was an immigrant. His parents may have concealed this fact from him.
Regarding Houdini's "usual money-making, self-aggrandizing way," exactly what's wrong with that? Houdini was an entertainer, first and foremost. He had to make money some way. Why not in this pseudo-educational manner?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Eric Fry Regular user 191 Posts |
I meant simply that he had mixed motives for his crusade. It was partly public service and partly self-serving. Nothing wrong with making a living.
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
Houdini most likely lost money on the spirtualism work. He took on a mammoth undertaking and footing the bill himself.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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Eric Fry Regular user 191 Posts |
Very good point. I'll withdraw my comment. It's fair to say that Houdini craved the limelight in his crusade against spritualism, but he was public-spirited, no pun intended.
On the immigration point, I think it's certain he knew that his father and mother were immigrants, given the family stories about why his father left the Old World and the fact that the parents didn't know English well or at all. So I'd call that an immigrant family. He seems to have come over when he was 4, two years after his father had left for America, so he might remember some of those very early experiences. I don't know if he really believed he was born in Appleton or just claimed it for patriotic reasons. He certainly grew up in a family that experienced deep poverty adjusting to a new land. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Your original statement was that he triumphed over the dislocation of immigration, not that he came from an immigrant family. If I recall the appearance of the first articles in major magic magazines that revealed his birth information, they were during the early 1970's.
Part of the story was that his mother had repeatedly told him that he had been born in America, so he could eventually become the President of the United States. I'll have to see if Ask Alexander is up again, so I can run a search for the article.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Eric Fry Regular user 191 Posts |
I see that as a distinction without a difference. America was a new place for his family, and his early years were difficult partly because of that. At the very least, English wasn't his first language.
The impression I have from the biographies is that his father never acclimated to the U.S., and the family was affected by his sense of failure and, of course, his poor income. I'd say Houdini triumphed as an immigrant regardless of where he thought he was born. Being a very young child in an immigrant family is to be part of a dislocated family. By the way, Manny Weltman's booklet about Houdini's early years says he listed Budapest as his birthplace on his passport application in 1900. |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
But in the end, he was an American citizen.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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MagiClyde Special user Columbus, Ohio 871 Posts |
I am presently reading an interesting book titled "The Adventures of Arthur Conan Doyle." It is quite a fascinating read, even though I am only about 1/4th of the way through it. One of the things that really turned him off to organized religion was a school he went to in his teens that was supposed to strengthen his religious beliefs, with the prospect of him becoming a priest, but had the opposite effect in the end.
Magic! The quicker picker-upper!
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Police Magician Special user Georgia 648 Posts |
I, too, have had a great interest in Houdini's life. As both a cop and a magician, I have tried to emulate Houdini's passion for debunking fraud. I know I will never reach the level he did as an entertainer.
The problem I have run into is, you never know what is hype and what is real. Being that I was not around in that time frame, I can only research and hope that what I read is true. I am grateful that we have a person such as Bill Palmer who is knowledgable about these things. Bill, thank you for your input to set the record straight. I trust your advice and information in these posts. I have a shelf that I have used for Houdini items. On it is a copy of a picture of a class he taught to NYC detectives and a letter of June 18, 1925, from the New York Police Department, thanking him for the class and requesting another one on the 25th. I don't know if he did another one, but the letter stressed the importance of law enforcement knowing the methods of fakirs. Having instructed law enforcement in fraud related courses, at various venues over the years, I feel akin to what Houdini did back in his days. My instruction was on various con games played around the states as well as carnival game fraud. The one part of the con game course that I really enjoy is doing the paranormal phenomena things such as psychic surgery, fortune tellers and fraudulent faith healers. You have to be careful with the latter one as I am in the Bible Belt of the South and could offend some. Thankfully, all were receptive to my course of instruction as I showed the elements of the crime involved in each of them.I would hope that Houdini would be proud of what I have done. Whatever Houdini's motivation for debunking fraudulent mediums of his time, he did a great public service, and I admire him for it. I understand that this caused his friendship with Doyle to diminish, but that was a sacrifice he made for the good of the public. Who better than a magician to teach about fraud. After all, certain principles of magic are used to swindle the unsuspecting. Glenn
Glenn Hester
P.O. Box 3095 Brunswick, Ga. 31521 912-571-8071 www.policemagic.com https://www.facebook.com/PoliceMagic https://www.facebook.com/groups/235078277679470/ |
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MagiClyde Special user Columbus, Ohio 871 Posts |
Quote:
2) What did Arthur Conan O'Doyle have to gain by being such a fervent spiritualist? Why did he want to believe so bad he would ignore Houdini's warnings and fraud exposures? Actually, Doyle ignored a lot of peoples' warnings about the fraud that was the Spiritualist movement. Once Doyle made up his mind about something, it was very nearly impossible to get him to change it. Actually, ACD lost both a brother and a son, but it was because of the Spanish flu, not because they had died in battle. This particular strain of flu was so virulent that it killed more people than died in the entirety of WWI, or "The Great War", as it was then known. After ACD became a spiritualist, another one of his sons died from pneumonia. I am nearly done with the book I mentioned in a previous post. The last few chapters and the entire third section of the book covers the story of Doyle's conversion to spiritualism as a religious belief. One of the chapters is titled "The Spiritualist & the Magician." Can't wait to find out what that's about!
Magic! The quicker picker-upper!
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