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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Phillip and Henry contracts (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bill Hegbli
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Mindpro, you missed on this one, the purpose of the Café is to keep all the information on a topic, in one topic. No matter how old it is. There should only be, for example one topic on "Selling Technique" all comments should be in this one topic. Instead, people keep making duplicate titles, thus when looking for good information, it is requires searching and reading 10 or 20 different topics, and in many cases, the information is not even in the correct topic.

If the members don't participate, you have what is currently happening, all information in the wrong place and many times duplicated.

So now it is to late to correct, but when a person does follow the correct topic, and not taking it off topic, he should not be called on it.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Keith Raygor wrote:
My opinion is this is another example of Mindpro maligning the magic community - without adding any substance.

The article Kevin linked to was a detailed assessment of his dealings with P and H and the State of CA. He is welcome to add his comments to any thread that is appropriate to the topic, such as the one he chose.

You offer no content whatsoever as to what you consider to be the misinformation and skewed perspective, while at the same moment slinging your well-worn arrows at magicians in the very place set aside for us to discuss these things. (Reminder to others that Mindpro is not a magician and has never been one).

There is nothing in his writings that I found contrary to my experiences with some agents. Please consider either backing up your indictments, or making constructive posts that are on topic.

I'm guessing you have an ebook on agents that contains the REAL work that you're willing to sell!


I just wish you could make a point that doesn't involve you sniping about ebooks at mindpro.

You make good well thought out points then ruin them with personal agenda nonsense.

That part of your post ironically enough completely lacks content.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Having said that let me say this.

This is nothing new and it continues to be sad. The sad part to me is so few take the rime to take a stand. One reason is illustrated above in that wonderful blog post.

The other sad thing is the solution is so simple. If nobody worked for them they are out of business in months. Why doesn't that happen? The answer to that is disturbing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
You make good well thought out points then ruin them with personal agenda nonsense.


We all have personal agendas. You too. I'm just honest about mine - contributing, while calling out continued lack of accurate information and flaming.
There is a difference between disagreement and flaming, the latter of which is against Magic Café' rules.

Re-read what you just wrote to me. Find anything in your post that demonstrates the behavior you're wishing from me. There's a word for that.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Keith Raygor wrote

I'm guessing you have an ebook on agents that contains the REAL work that you're willing to sell!


This is a classis example of you flaming.

If not then please explain what you feel this adds in content.

Also show me where I flamed you please.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Keith Raygor wrote
I'm guessing you have an ebook on agents that contains the REAL work that you're willing to sell!

Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
This is a classis example of you flaming.
If not then please explain what you feel this adds in content.

That was me truly guessing that he was selling something to do with the subject. After seeing his ad (in the form of a post), it turns out I am correct. My experience helped me recognize his use of calling misinformation without providing an example, labeling something skewed without identifying it, and then referring to the "maliciousness in the magic community". It was a complete dismissal of Kevin's post without supplying any foundation or reason. Rather than engaging in the conversation that Kevin spent time preparing, so that others would be forearmed, Mindpro used three negative implications, and left. It led me to think that once again, he's selling something. That's just guessing, not flaming. It would be flaming to you if you found something negative only in what -I- said in my response, but not in what Mindpro posted.
Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Also show me where I flamed you please.

You didn't, nor did I think so. My flaming remark referred to Mindpro's post. My only reference to you concerned our personal agendas.

I do notice you're compelled to comment on my response to Mindpro's undeservedly negative post, but maintained silence about his. This is not uncommon for you.
I hope this helped clarify, and moves the conversation about P and H forward.
Dannydoyle
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Or clarifies you have an agenda.

See your desire to call others out is not needed or helpful.

I disagreed with mindpro. I simply put my differing opinion without the personal agenda bs you feel so compelled to add.

I said the exact opposite of him and thought the blog post was very helpful. I didn't add any jabs about it like you insist on doing.

You have used that same tiresome line many times as an attack and it is not helpful. If you truly wish to move things forward still making useless attacks, which is what you acuse others of doing. They're is s word for that.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Nov 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Or clarifies you have an agenda.

As I said, I do. And I'll repeat it - contributing, while calling out continued lack of accurate information and flaming.

Quote:
On Nov 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
See your desire to call others out is not needed or helpful. .

I believe it is both, but I understand why you think it's neither.
Dannydoyle
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No. You "think" you understand. Truly what you have is the furthest thing from understanding.

IF you were calling everyone out on every piece of bs maybe you could claim that ground. As it is you attack only one. That is sort of trolling.

The other thing is when you sort of self appoint yourself to this you then become the sole arbiter of what you think is right to post here. Which ironically enough is the behavior that you are accusing him of.

One thing I Definately disagree with is that there is one way to post, or that somehow one business model is the way to do things. Sometimes mindpro gets myopic on thinking everyone can run a business like XXX, and holds people that idea. He is wrong. This section is to help everyone from weekend kids show guys to those who want to tour nationally.

All you end up doing is replacing one myopic view that you disagree with to interject yours.

I know how much you hate hypocrisy so I an trying to save you from it.

Now you can go ahead and justify your behavior and then make some comment you believe to be witty which is just passive aggressive nonsense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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Do you see how funny it is to have Danny Doyle go on about someone else's manner of speech?
Dannydoyle
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Yea funny how you resort to that instead of a substantive rebuttal. You are as predictable as the tide. Plus as a bonus you prove my point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
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I am interested to better understand the issue people have with P&H. Exceeding the legal limits of percentages seems like obvious common ground, but what about everything else? "Low ball" bids, bottom feeder opportunities, SEO reliance, etc. For me, I have no issue with them operating in those capacities and I have no issue with someone agreeing to work for them.
Keith Raygor
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Charliecheckers,
On the first page of this thread, several people go into detail about the issues they have with them. On the 2nd page, trickychaz does this along with others. My experience mirrors much of what they say. I haven't received calls from them in years, because I asked them not to call me anymore, but they offered $80 per birthday show at a time when the market was $200-$300 per show. They did go on to find someone that was willing to do the show. So in a limited sense, I agree with you that I have no problem with their place in the market, or others that wish to work for them.

But, a couple things come to mind. The event itself is typically an important one - the celebration of a child's birthday, and likely the only birthday party they'll ever have with a magician performing. From my perspective as a parent, and then as an entertainer, I wouldn't want an unknown showing up to my house. I knew the $80 magician that ended up taking the gig, and I would never have hired them for an event I was having. Making decisions without choosing, or knowing who's showing up is something I'd never do. As you said, if others want to do that, fine. But if I'm the one spending the money, no way. And I wouldn't want to support an organization that used that model as their basis, because too much can go wrong.

For me, it's kind of like going to a garage sale to buy an important household item. Sure, there's a washing machine sitting in their front yard. And I need one. But what DON'T I know about that 12-year old machine? I prefer researching important decisions, and trying to get info on who has the best brand, and do they have experience serving my location, etc? Somebody will buy the machine, and I'm glad the homeowner's garage sale was there for them, but it won't be me making that deal.

So as a parent, I wouldn't like the unknown person showing up. And as a professional, I'm aware there's a place for P and H and those that take the gigs - but I would (and did) distance my brand from them as much as possible.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 28, 2016, charliecheckers wrote:
I am interested to better understand the issue people have with P&H. Exceeding the legal limits of percentages seems like obvious common ground, but what about everything else? "Low ball" bids, bottom feeder opportunities, SEO reliance, etc. For me, I have no issue with them operating in those capacities and I have no issue with someone agreeing to work for them.


Gouging performers is the issue. What one works for us between two parties.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Powermagic
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Right, it seems booking agents like to take as much and do little.

The client has no idea since they pay full price. At one point P H had their prices on line so you could see what they charge vs what was offered to the performer. Sure you can put in an offer but I never had them take it as they will find newbie who is hungry.

Yes the issue for the client is they don't realize PH has probably never met who they send out. They don't realize they are not actually in their home state.

If they get good feedback they keep offering you work as long as you are going to do it for low money.

If performers know what these bookers are getting, they could play hard ball. The more that are aware of the fees they charge, the more they could put in the bid and PH has no choice to get something vs nothing.
Dannydoyle
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A true agent is about having access.

A worthwhile agent would never have a choice between something and nothing.

Now I freely admit they are few and far between. Most are as you say.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Comedy Writer
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At $90 per show, I would be losing money
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