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Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts |
I was thinking about the following.
1. Can you perform mentalism for children in general? Clarification: Is there anything that cathegorically says you shouldn´t perform mentalism for kids the same way some people say you shouldn´t perform magic where you smoke cigarettes or loop ropes around your neck, or put objects in your mouth? 2. Do children really understand what´s magic about a mental trick? Clarification: Adults are often blown away by mental tricks, but children often think you guessed, were lucky, and so on. Or even understand how the trick works. Mikael |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
HI,
I perform several mental effects for children (not all in the same show) to do this succesfully I believe the effect needs to be funny, involve the children, have plenty of action. Just like any other magic trick for children. Actualy I have sent one of my mental routines for children to Paul Hallas (PH Marketing) a couple of weeks back for a forthcoming edition of his excellent magazine "Alchemy" phillip |
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asmayly Loyal user San Antonio, Texas 291 Posts |
Yes, I think children around the age of 7 and up really enjoy mentalism.
I think kids are suprisingly savvy. Because there are usually kids around when I perform for adults, I have had them come up to me and "thank me" and say the show was "cool" and this is from 7 and 8 year olds. And of course the older kids love it as well. Frankly, I was a little surprised, but mostly because I had "heard" that mentalism/magic is not for kids. Now mentalism for very old people in hospitals is a different story . . .! -Asmayly |
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Ian Rowland Special user London 889 Posts |
If you can perform for kids, you can do mentalism for them.
If you can't perform for kids, you can't do mentalism or anything else. Not very successfully anyway.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
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Allen Gittelson Regular user San Francisco 145 Posts |
Children can be challenging to perform for, but like any audience, you need to tailor your performance for the intended audience as the audience is certainly one of the large variables that affects the perception of the performance.
Depending on the audience, there can be perception and thinking issues involved. For example, I've performed mentalism for some children who did not really enjoy my performances. I may have presented a prediction for example, and they just accepted it as a normal phenomenon and thought there was nothing special. I had to evaluate myself and the performance, including the consideration of the audience to create something that works better for all of the participants. Jay Sankey gives an example of the thinking of children in that most young children will not get up and ride the paradox of the "paperclipped" trick of his. They'll just look at you and tell you that you are silly. Adults ride the paradox and their brains just go wild on the crazy ride. Often children have not yet limited their thinking in the way that adults have, and this can present different mindsets to perform for when you perform for children. This is definitely important to keep in mind. |
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Mr Amazing Special user 617 Posts |
Can you talk politics with children? Sure... if it is a their level. And I'd guess they enjoy the pom-pom stick even more.
/Matias |
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
I've had some modest experience with doing magic for--and teaching magic to--young children, and I don't find mentalism any more or less difficult for them to understand than any other kind of magic. In fact, they quite like the idea of mindreading. I think that if they can understand other standard types of effects, they can understand mental effects.
Which kind of magic is strongest or most entertaining for them is of course different than for adults, but I'd say many mental effects make it into the "strong for children" category. It does need to be made very direct and visual, however. So while the mileage of different effects varies, I'd say that appreciating the magic AS magic occurs at about the same age for all the different types of effects. Sankey's example of Paper-clipped not working for children is, in my opinion, not an example of children "not getting it", but rather an example of something that is not as strong for children, because they reason differently about the possible explanations, much as people from a different culture might do the same. They simply don't believe that it is the same card, in spite of the signature (I wonder if this means signed card effects in general are a no-no for children?--a possible explanation might simply be that children have little experience with signatures as proof of identity and just don't relate to them). There IS a certain age at which children do not really understand any kind of magic, however, and it depends on the child where the dividing line is. It can be anywhere between four and seven, I'd say. There are very few kindergarten children who really appreciate magic, perhaps one in twenty. Magic is the violation of natural law, and children at that age are still trying to figure out natural law. They can find magic "surprising," and entertaining for that reason, but not "impossible"--and it is the experience of the impossible that constitutes magic. Surprise is not magic (any more than is confusion). You can still entertain them with magic, but I would contend that you could do about the same job with some other catchy children's entertainment. They may be appreciating your performance, but not AS magic. This can be true even when they are able to tell you, in a definitional sense, what magic is.
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts |
It might be that some of the mental effects I have performed for children was too bad. It can also be that I had the wrong presentation. One effect I performed before and then changed, was this: A child choses one card, and I show them this card is the only one with a different color on the backside. That effect impressed the adults, but most every performance some child said: "I know how he did that, nothing magical about that, he just put a card with another color in the deck!"
Then I started to perform it like this: I show the backs of the cards (casually) to be red. I show the frontside of the cards, and one child gets to chose a card. Then I tell them that I will try to change the color of the chosen card. If it is a club, they think I mean that it will change to another color then black. I say: "Abracadabra!". Nothing happens. I say: "Hocus pocus!" Nothing happens. Then I turn the fan around so they see the backs of the cards, and say: "Well, you can´t succeed every time!" Of course they see that the card has changed color on its BACKSIDE, and they start to yell that fact to me, but I pretend not to hear them, and I square the cards up and put them back in the card box, and continue with the next effect. With this presentation EVERYONE is impressed, but of course, it´s no longer a mental effect. Mikael |
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Mr Amazing Special user 617 Posts |
Mikael - for the parents I guess it could still be a mental effect (mental magic, though - not mentalism) if you added some presentational bits e.g by also letting the parents take part in the actual selection and having parents and kids "fight" until the reach a consensus on one.
...but in general I really think regular magic is more suitable for children. I doubt it's a coincidence that "all" the tricks for children that I know of are magic, rather than mentalism. With the risk of getting pretentious, the great child psychologist Piaget teaches us about the various cognitive stages a child has to go through before he can grasp certain concepts. My guess is that the often complex questions that arise in mentalism rely on the fact that the participants realize such things are difficult/impossible to do with the mind. In general magic, the focus is often on the change of objects (be it vanishes, color changes or what ever), and children are used to the laws of nature that controls objects in every day life. Perhaps PK is more suitable for children? (But be careful so that their sudden movements don't interfer with anything). However, considering that they are probably as fascinated (if not more) when the wand falls apart than when the spoon bends in an impossible manner, I would think it may be "throwing pearls for the swines" (is that an English expression too?). Perhaps "swine" wasn't a good choice of words... /Matias |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
HI,
I think that the trouble you had Mikael, was that with the effect that you performed, the Effect was everything and as a rule for children, any magic or mentalism where the effect is everything will not play well for children. As Ken Brooke might say (have said) the Journey has to be as much fun as the final destination. Phillip |
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
I am of the mind to propose that if a mentalism effect doesn't play for children, then it's not too interesting for adults either.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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omnibozo Regular user Boulder, CO 151 Posts |
Be sure to ask Mark Strivings about performing mentalism for kids when he is the guest poster next month!
Mark and I (we're such good buddies it makes me all warm and fuzzy just to say that phrase!) just hosted an entire meeting of a super secret mentalist group (not the PEA!) where that was the topic of the month. Mark has several kid mentalism items on the market. I have worked up a few, and other members had similar stories to tell. I recommend the kid show books by David Kaye... Silly Billy. His sections on the psychology of kid magic are priceless... For mentalism his section on how to rephrase the patter into kid understandable language is excellent advice. |
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-03-27 12:54, p.b.jones wrote: There may be some truth in that, but I am not convinced. I think there may be other more important reasons why Mikael's effect was not the best for children. It seems to me that the kids were not perceiving the trick as being about Mikael's ability to mentally control their choice. The most obviously surprising thing about the trick was the appearance of the different coloured back, so they jumped to the conclusion that *that* was the effect. The idea of mental control somehow got lost in the glare of the different coloured back. My view is not so much that the effect can't be everything. I've gotten lots of great response from kids from totally straightforward no-nonsense presentations of magic. No flash and colour. No puppets. No endless sucker games. No music. No costumes. No out-and-out humour. No funny noises. Just magic. They still love it. Now I'm not saying kids don't love all those things. But they can love straight magic too. The point is that the effect has to be simple, straightforward and direct enough for them to understand. The trick should not be too involved. The magic part should be clear and straightforward. It should not require too many reasoning steps to get from what they see to the conclusion that magic has occurred. And there should not be any surprises in the trick's climax that they might confuse with the magic. One of the effects that I have found plays very strong is this: You tell the child to pick a card, and look at it, and return it to the deck. Make a big production about not letting anyone else see the card, that it is a secret. They will oblige with enthusiasm--kids love and can really relate to secrets. Then place your hands on their head and make a big production about reading their mind, telling them to picture their card, as you pull the thought right out of their head and announce the card. It is totally straightforward, and there is no chance they will get confused as to what you are trying to do. They love having their minds read when it is simple and direct like this. The only thing I've done that gets a stronger reaction is disappearing a silk stuffed into my fist (but only in short sleeves--otherwise they'll literally grab your sleeve and peer up inside it). Again, simple and direct. No complicated plots. And just pure effect--no kid-show window dressing required.
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Yaniv Deautsch Special user Israel 529 Posts |
I don't think that mentalism is for children.
Nor is magic. They don't need it. They live in their magical world so to speak so what do they need magic for? I think that grown up people do need us to bring them back this sense of magic which most people had lost.. Yaniv Deautsch |
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Ray Eldard New user Phoenix, AZ 90 Posts |
The secret to performing mentalism for kids, for me anyway, is two things. Clarity, you must make it clear to them what the effect is, and some advice I once read from Silly Billy. He said that with kids it's the destination, not the ride.
The middle of my kid show is a long comedy mentalism piece that is one of the most popular routines in the act. It involves a lot of kids wearing goofy gadgets and doing crazy things, but at the end when one child transfers a bit of unkown information to another every kid gets it. The routine grew out of a marketed effect I almost abandoned outright for the very reason that the effect was lost on the kids. Now only one piece of the original effect remains and it has evolved into a showpiece for me. |
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Ray Eldard New user Phoenix, AZ 90 Posts |
Okay, so much for clarity. What Silly Billy said was that with kids it's the ride, not the destination. In other words, even though they are amazed by the outcome of an effect, it's more important for them to have a good time getting there.
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
HI,
Obviously Silly Billy has read Ken Brookes Magic The Unique years page 20 as this is where Ken Brooke made that quote. See my earlier post which I posted off the cuff. I have now soursed the reference. Phillip |
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Ray Eldard New user Phoenix, AZ 90 Posts |
Thanks, I'll take you at your word on the source. I, or at least Silly Billy, stand corrected.
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-03-31 03:31, rjejr wrote: Interesting, and I would not try to deny anyone else's experience concerning what, for them, works best with children, but my experience has been quite otherwise.
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts |
Allan, I´m so glad you wrote this. It supports my opinion that things can be different from the norm for a certain person, and that some "truths" in magic or mentalism are only true for the majority.
Mikael Quote:
On 2002-04-01 01:35, Allan-F wrote: |
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