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RVH Magic Special user 877 Posts |
One of my original illusions is being copied by someone in Thailand (Mr. Tuxedo) and because of their legal system there is nothing I can do about it even if I would have a patent! my lawer (who is a magician himself & expert in intellectual property) even said it is lucky that I didn't have a patent with all the details exposed because now he is misssing some important key elements in his rip off version of my creation!
It would be great if we could protect our creations but unfortunately a patent is not the solution for this! |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
Is there a written set of rules or ethical standards for the profession of 'magician'?
Most people will only recognize the "Basic Rules of Magic" as the ethical standards. In fact, how many places will put you down as 'entertainer' or 'performer' when you say you are a magician?
-Matt
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-07-19 23:42, Rafael (Belgium) wrote: There was a thread about having builders outside the US licensed to build props so that they can be available to those in other countries. There would at least be a choice.
-Matt
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RVH Magic Special user 877 Posts |
In this case we're talking about a illusion that I want to keep exclusive for my own shows!
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JasonB Regular user 174 Posts |
Matt,
Your vigor is enviable but your direction pointless. Your age is immaterial but your experience is clearly young. When I was just about your age I honestly made the most important decision of my life. I created a motto. It was "I only know one thing and that is that I don't know anything". Then I pursed as many avenues as I could to learn. Younger magician's often open their mouths to "instill" knowledge and not to learn. Ask questions and study the answer whether you agree or not. Ask more questions still but, inept arguments to senior magicians is pointless and damaging to you. Arguing semi-regularly with Rafael, now Ray Pierce, making insulting remarks about Mark Kalin, David Copperfield? These are people you want to alienate? You should just be honored that Rafael and Ray have even given you a moments additional thought. Wouldn't it have been better to make their acquaintance in a positive way and even perhaps maybe asked if they would evaluate a video of you? In the small community of magic these aren't people I'm really interested in aggravating. You also fall into the young magicians curse of thinking all big magicians and builders are millionaires. It is expensive & time consuming to patent items & MUCH more so to pursue it. People don't have the time or money, could you? They also might be more interested in staying positive & just continuing to create. As much as you mention exposures, I would dare to say more magic is exposed by bad magicians & by knockoff illusions. That's part of the problem with knock offs. No one will ever stop exposure & the bigger issue is that truly better performances will benefit magic more than the same six guys talking on a message bored (intended). Every time you want to talk about the Masked Magician simply improve your own act. That will have a far better effect on magic than debating the minutia of exposure & nonexistent patents. I won't be engaging in an endless debate with you so please just take this in a fairly positive way and think about it. |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I never made remarks about anyone. I simply said that Kalin is claiming rights to something that he has no backing to do so. Yes, he created the design, but can he go after anyone that copies it? No. Did I say anything bad about Copperfield? No. I simply stated that I READ he did not get permission for something. I never accused him. I never said he did.
I am not arguing with anyone. I am simply stating facts that I have learned here on the Café from OTHER magicians. I also do not believe that all big magicians and builders are millionaires. I do believe that if they do not want to protect something, they can't assume that everyone is going to go to them to get one. I am not trying to "instill" knowledge. I am simply stating facts and information I got from other magicians.
-Matt
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JasonB Regular user 174 Posts |
Matt,
You've totally missed my points. You can equivocate all you like. You didn't make any "alleged" qualifications about Copperfield, what you said was (and I quote) "David Copperfield has done it. Look at how he ripped off Kevin James Floating Rose." Mark has made several VERY distinct differences to Alan Wakeling's creation. As I understand it with Alan's knowledge and blessing. Magic is not a court of law. Hopefully it can be a semi-independent guild with honor and respect for each other's creations and improvements (doubtful but we can try and hope). Consider what I've said, at least hopefully some younger performer will and will benefit. These arguments are pointless. If you live with respect for creators and performers who have blazed before you, you'd be surprised at the friendships you can generate that enrich your life. Be cool dude. |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
My point is that even some effort is better than none. If you show no effort to protect what is yours, you won't get respect. I respect Jim Steinmeyer. He has made efforts to protect what is his. It may not have been all that effective, but at least he made the effort.
In a court case, intellectual property may not be enough to favor you. But I think with a little bit of effort (copyright, patent) you may have a better chance, by showing some effort on your part.
-Matt
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RVH Magic Special user 877 Posts |
Matthew,
"I am not arguing with anyone. I am simply stating facts that I have learned here on the Café from OTHER magicians." maybe you are listening to the wrong magicians...(like those who think it is ok to copy Fearson/Copperfields laser because the contract is between them = BS!) Trust me! every Designer I know does a lot of effort in protecting what is theirs! In the past I've worked close together with Kevin James, Mark Kalin, Daniel Summers, Ayala, Chris Hart & Bill Smith to stop some of the copy cats in Europe so I know for a fact that they do everything they can to stop the thieves ! But there are many out there so it's still a long way to go... (everyday I find at least one copy on youtube from clips that have just been added!) |
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Kyle^Ravin Inner circle I slammed my head against 1070 Posts |
Phew... that's quite a read. Matt, take it easy. U sound a little defensive man. Lets all learn from one another and not be too guarded.
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
Maybe rather than try to stop people in another country, try some copycats in the same country. Win and you have something to use against other copycats.
A court in another country may see that and favor your side.
-Matt
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RVH Magic Special user 877 Posts |
If only it were this simple !
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
They want to bring ethics into it and think that a patent will expose the secret to everyone. Thinking like that is going to hurt you, rather than help you.
My main point is that ethics is only a moral point of view when there is nothing to back up the creator. You are technically fine to do whatever you want with something that has nothing to back it up. I can't believe that people think trying to protect something is a bad thing. To not do anything is saying it is ok. "Nothing says you can't" "Nothing says you can" ^^^That's effective.
-Matt
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Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
Matthew is trying to say that everyone should protect his own illusions. I think some way he is right but does it worth if people unethical and steal?
Matthew if you come up with an illusion what people never saw before and a year later you see that hundreds of magicians illegally perform your illusion would you go after them? I don’t think you have that money to pay the lawyers for each case plus you would lose. The American law is only for American people. In Russia or in the Middle East countries they would laugh on you and your law. To solve this problem every country should sign a protection agreement and if there is a court case the loser should pay everything. That will never happen. Just look at this guy site. He steals from everyone without any feeling. He is building and selling them for years. http://trukkmester.mizu.hu/galery4/ Bill as I see is time to write a new Encyclopedia of Magic and Magicians book. If my memories serves good the last T A Waters print was about 25 years ago. Lots of new illusions and illusionist out there now that should be in the book. I'm sure you would cover every field well. Best, Las |
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WizzBang Regular user 125 Posts |
Well I've had something stolen from me and I chose not to do anything about it once I investigated the costs involved. I looked at it from a return versus investment point of view. But I'm not saying it's OK.
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
If nobody does anything, there is nothing to say that it is wrong.
My point is, if you don't do anything to protect something, don't feel bad if someone copies it. You know it will happen. There was an episode of a show about reposessors. One of the guys in the group jumped a gate to identify a vehicle. The owner of the car called the police. The guy that jumped the gate was arrested. The police said that had the gate been open, he would have been fine. Don't leave your gates open.
-Matt
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7565 Posts |
I was reading through this thread, and I'm going to comment. It is not my desire to stir up a hornets nest that has been quiet for a week.
Here are a few observations... First, many of the top magicians know what illusion belongs to whom. It is clear from this thread. That is a form of "laying claim to your property." They recognize the property of others, because they care to be informed. Ask people who care strongly about ethics, and they know who owns what. So, to argue that the creators aren't protecting it is wrong. There's a high level of networking that happens. In addition, there is a website like Illusion Rights, which helps to point out who can build / manufacture certain illusions. It talks even MORE about intellectual property. But again, there are already a bunch of pros who recognize intellectual property aside from this list. So, that's not to say that this list is the complete list. http://www.magicauction.com/IllusionHotl......ghts.htm We have discussed ethics and rip-offs before, several times. Here is one thread: --> Magic Café thread titled... Rip off illusions On it, I made a post with several points. Here was one of them. People who buy or build knock off illusions suffer in some way for their choice. The prop doesn't fool as much as it should. The magician / illusionist who buys a knock-off loses potential bookings and show opportunities, etc. He doesn't get referrals, bookings, or a maximum amount of help from others who care strongly about ethics. LOSS OF POTENTIAL INCOME! I have seen this happen to a local entertainer first hand. To further add to that thought, I offer this. Several people were arguing in defense of ethics, and one person was arguing in defense of their own desires / opinions. So, it is clear that people care about ethics, and it is a heart choice that comes from within. It is a very hard thing to force people to act in a moral or ethical way. They have to be driven from the inside out, rather than have it forced on them. The top pros care about ethics in building and buying illusions. This is HUGE. That should tell you something. That should tell you that if you want to make it big like they have, and you want to earn some real money, that you had better start caring about ethics. I have seen two big Canadian Magicians take a personal stand on ethics. I have watched as Murray Hatfield defended the idea of buying authorized illusions, to other magicians well over 15 years ago, and several times since then. Just this last week, Murray mentioned to me in an email that a certain nuance in a Korean's illusionist's presentation of a certain illusion belonged to that performer (that this nuance wasn't fair game). I wasn't even suggesting that Murray use that nuance, that I recall. I think little things like that are so awesome! Murray respects other people's property, whether it be the whole prop or part of a routine. Because it is the right thing. Murray is a big pro who I have huge respect for. I have watched Shawn Farquhar defend his right to keep his "Shape of My Heart" routine as his property. It doesn't mean that he sues (that I'm aware of), but he does take steps to lay claim to it. It's his, and many people know it. Again, Shawn is a big pro who I have huge respect for. There are lessons to be learned by watching what the real top pros are doing. They behave in certain ways. They believe certain things. They show respect for the ideas and property of others. - Donald P.S. I once wanted to borrow a certain line from Murray's show. I asked him, and was very blessed that he gave me permission. I was also fully prepared to not use it, if he said no. After all, it was his material. That's another example of ethics in action.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
" First, many of the top magicians know what illusion belongs to whom. It is clear from this thread. That is a form of "laying claim to your property." They recognize the property of others, because they care to be informed.
So, to argue that the creators aren't protecting it is wrong. " Just because some people know that someone created something does not mean that the creators are protecting it. 'Top Magicians' network with other 'Top Magicians.' How does that inform 'weekend performers' or those starting out with illusions or magic? " People who buy or build knock off illusions suffer in some way for their choice. The prop doesn't fool as much as it should. The magician / illusionist who buys a knock-off loses potential bookings and show opportunities, etc. He doesn't get referrals, bookings, or a maximum amount of help from others who care strongly about ethics. LOSS OF POTENTIAL INCOME! I have seen this happen to a local entertainer first hand. " So any illusion not made by the licensed builder is not deceptive? I am not defending knock off builders in any way, but I have seen deceptive knock offs, so I cannot agree with that statement. I have seen people say that intellectual property laws can protect something. Why don't people use that to their advantage? My point is that if people don't want their stuff copied, they should take steps to protect it. So far, I have not seen anything that says anyone is trying to stop something. If someone sees an illusion and wants to build it they are going to. If one of the 'Top Magicians' that created it sees the knockoff, why not try to make contact to stop it? If people know that they may be contacted by the creator maybe they will think twice. How many people that own knock offs, especially in a different country from the creator have the knock offs because they simply did not now they could get it from a licensed builder. Do a google search for "Spiker Illusion" are you going to find anything that says that says you can pay Kalin for the rights? No. You are going to find the knock off from Snap Illusions on the first page of the results. Here is someone that is doing something to inform people that they are the licensed builder. http://www.google.com/search?q=shrink+bo......irefox-a The search term is for the name of the illusion in Andrew Maynes book. Something he did not have permission to publish. I applaud Daniel Summers effort.
-Matt
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7565 Posts |
Matthew -
This forum is ripe with information. So, anyone that comes on here, reads the threads, and then claims to be uninformed, is lying. They are without excuse. So, we can't debate about the people who haven't informed themselves. There are many ways for them to become properly informed. We can only speak about those are here and have been exposed to this information. And if you ever come across those who aren't informed, you can tell them. ---------------------------------------- As to your other arguement about defense / protection. Let's say a person lives in a house. They have a car outside. Maybe a bike or two in their backyard. Someone comes onto their property and steals a bike. Is it somehow the homeowners fault, because the bike wasn't locked inside? No, the person who took the item is at fault for taking what didn't belong to them. They even tresspassed to commit the crime. What if the person breaks into the house? Is it somehow the owner's fault, because they didn't use a better security on the windows or doors, or a house alarm? No, again, it is the criminal's fault. What if a person breaks into the car, and steals what's inside, or steals the car? Is it the owner's fault because he didn't have an alarm? No, it is the criminal's fault for taking what didn't belong to them, and for not respecting the property of others. Do neighbours stop themselves from stealing your property because of the police, or because it is the right thing to do? I think they respect what belongs to others. Be a good neighbour (think like a neighbour), and quit thinking like a criminal. They defend their unethical, immoral, and illegal behavior. It's the criminals that are the problem. They do not behave themselves, even though the police exist, jails exist, and the courts exist. They do what they do until caught, and then often again after they have been caught. In some communities, it's perfectly safe to leave a bike in the backyard. In some communities in this world, people can even leave their car unlocked, and be safe. Now, I believe in being somewhat careful. I believe in locking doors on houses and cars, because that is what society is like. To some homeowners, they think they should go all the way and use alarms, firearms, etc. So, there are degrees of protection. Just because you think others should take maximum measure, doesn't mean they agree with you. Some think that less should be enough. Whether it's protected highly, or moderately, that still doesn't excuse a criminal's behavior in any way. But if someone steals, they are committing the crime. It's not really the homeowner's fault. "Oh, I just happened to be in someone else's yard, and saw a bike (or car, or valuable property in the house) there. I didn't know it was theirs." Again, think like a neighbour, and not like a criminal. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Christopher Starr Inner circle Heart of America 1850 Posts |
Great points and observations, Donald.
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