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Bob Sanders
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Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
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After living in the South, I'm not sure heaven could be better. LOL

Actually my wife is from Hilton, NY. Sometimes we are up there where people eat potatoes for breakfast. (I do miss grits!) Folks up there are always telling me, "Bob say something". Perhaps they hear funny?

Y'all come see us. Today starts Magic Valley Magic here at the ranch. Join us! It's FREE! Tonight Curt Anderson is the MC.

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Go to the end. This is our 5th year.

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Bob Sanders

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Bob Sanders
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To answer several questions in one post, I give this. Yes, my Knots-Off Silks can be preformed with only one hand once the knot is tied. They are real 100% China silk and come in every color except white. You can get 24" and 36" sets but the "knots" are not interchangeable. Three gimmicked "knots" come with the set but I know nobody who uses more than two.

There are diamond cut silks to match available for Silk to Egg, etc.

Come join us for our 6th Magic Valley Magic October 2-3, 2015. It's FREE!

http://magicvalleymagic.com/

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Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Bob Sanders wrote, "I don't like covering up the knot from the audience repeatedly with my hand as the two-hand method and props require"

I have had both versions of this effect and I sometimes perform this it in my 2nd show using the method Bob has a problem with... but at no point do I have a need to cover up the knot from the audience repeatedly (or even at all) and so I can only surmise Bob is handling this incorrectly!

The advantage of what Bob calls the two handed version, which as he suggests is a complete misnomer as both versions use two hands to tie the knot so instead lets call it the 'manual version' rather than the 'gravity version', is that in the 'manual version' the knot forms in the middle of the silk well away from the hands that are holding on to the ends of the handkerchief and the loose knot that is initially formed can be tightened as slowly or as fast as you prefer. It's this clean, open and very deceptive aspect of the knot formation in the middle of the hanky away from the hands that attracted me to the manual version over the 'gravity version', which in my option, by contrast looks less clean and therefore less magically impactful.

In the version Bob prefers (the gravity version) the knot has to be 'placed' in the centre of the silk as the hands appear to tie the knot.

I understand the appeal of the knot being able to be worked free from the silk without touching it but personally I was never too keen on the knot dropping off the silk 'on its own' as although it's descent can initially be sort of controlled it's descent off the silk eventually leaves the control of the performer as gravity completely overcomes friction and it drops off. Of course this isn't a problem per se, it still looks effective it just doesn't appeal to me.

By contrast the knot in the manual version can be removed at any speed, in as many or as few steps as you like and is under complete control 100% of the time. The compromise is you pinch the knot and manually slide it off rather than jiggle it free.

Both versions can of course look and be very effective. The look of the knots' removal is different in the two versions. Which you version you prefer will depend on what aspects of the effect are important to you and what you are looking to achieve.
Neal Austin

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JNeal
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When I did this many years ago as a 'two knot ' version, I would allow the first one to drop off via gravity, and the second was manually plucked off using the pinching move that SeaLegs suggests, by pinching the knot at the side(so as not to obscure it's visibility). This allowed me to time the reveal of the two holes in the scarf to a musical crescendo.

Later on, I changed to a single knot version (and a much larger hole) which meant that I only used the manual 'plucking' handling. This gave me the most control of the timing with regard to the music used, as well as a better 'clean-up' for getting tid of the discarded knot. As usual, SeaLegs gives practical advice based on his vast performing experience.
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Bob Sanders
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Sealegs,

I need to teach you how to do our version of Knots-Off Silk. It is not performed as you are explaining!

Your statement "In the version Bob prefers (the gravity version) the knot has to be 'placed' in the centre of the silk as the hands appear to tie the knot." Is entirely WRONG!

Once the REAL knot is tied, it only takes one hand. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MOVE THE KNOT DOWN MANUALLY AS YOU ARE EXPLAINING. It starts at the top and slides on its own, unties the REAL tied knot, down to and OVER the thickest part of the silk and all the way to the floor (if you like).

Speed control is no problem for over 35 years for me and I can indeed stay with the music. (Dancers use both hands for a different reason.) --- In my shows I typically use a 36" silk. The 24" silk is the one most available commercially, probably due to price.

Most of the professionals I supply do not cut the holes in the silks unless they do not do body loads or continue the routine. Personally I follow the knots off effect using the same silk for a dove production And then a barehanded vanish of a 36" silk. Soon perhaps this routine will appear in a Linking Ring Parade I am writing now.

Please don't confuse the routines with others. The primary difference in the two methods named here (Weighted loops versus the Foam Ponytail Holders) is that one (Weighted Loops) unties the REAL "tied knot" itself without manual assistance and only requires one hand to complete once the "tied knot" is tied. Either can be stopped from falling on the floor.
Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Bob, let me quote my own post for you... when describing the 'gravity' or weighted loops method I said, "I understand the appeal of the knot being able to be worked free from the silk without touching it..."

I'm unsure how you managed to get from this statement of mine, to a capitalised, "YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MOVE THE KNOT DOWN MANUALLY AS YOU ARE EXPLAINING"

Um... As you can hopefully now see I am not explaining that you have to move it manually... If I was I would indeed have been 'entirely wrong'. Have a read again Bob and you'll see I explicitly said the knot can be removed without touching it. (In case there's any doubt... "without touching it", is equivalent to, "you do not have to move the knot down manually" and this is the case whether the words are capitalised or not)

Also, if you read my post again you'll see that I'm referring to the foam loop method when I mention that the knot is removed manually.

In anticipation of your apology, I graciously accept... no harm done. Smile

As to me being 'entirely wrong' about the way the knot is formed in the weighted loop method... Let me be charitable and assume that maybe that I didn't explained myself in my post clearly enough (although JNeal seemed to understand it Smile )... so here is the same information rewritten hopefully in a way that everyone will be able to understand.

In the foam loop method the knot forms well away from the hands. The ends of the hanky are apparently 'crossed over' to 'form the loop that makes the knot' and a loose knot is seen to tighten and form in the centre of the hanky well away from the hands that remain holding the diagonally opposite ends. At no time in the knot's formation do the hands come near the location on the hanky where the knot forms.

The same cannot be said for the weighted loop version. In the weighted loop version the hands are involved at the site where the knot ends up located on the hanky.

Both ways of forming the knot can look effective. But in my opinion the knot formation of the foam loop method looks far cleaner and more open.

And Bob, I'll happily teach you how to remove the knots in the foam loop method without having to "[cover] up the knot from the audience repeatedly",... just pinch it at the sides between your finger and thumb making sure the knot remains visible and then slide it off.

In exchange I'd be interested to hear how you manage to tie a knot with the weighted loop method without your hands being involved with the location at where the knot forms... but I think I might have a long wait. Smile
Neal Austin

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JNeal
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I sure would like to see a video of each of these handlings!

To start it off, here are two clips of me doing a singular knot off silk. first one is over 30 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdUaDxXt......W5W0SZkw (look at around1:03)

the second one is about 7 years ago (look about 18 seconds in):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xonrS2yI9HA

It is a rather simple, but very much controlled handling!
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ROBERT BLAKE
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Like the knot in the first video. it is enough for the trick. nice sequence with silk and rope. thanks jneal
Sealegs
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Great clips Jonathan. Always a pleasure to watch a class act.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
James Adamson
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I agree, Great clips Jonathan.
Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not skill.
Bill Hegbli
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I must admit, I don't know what Sealegs, JNeal, and Bob Sanders are talking about. I only know the classic method for tying a knot in a silk for it to dissolve, and then I learned one P&A Silk marketed some time ago, it is genius, and very convincing, but does make a tighter knot on the standard original "Knots Off Silk" product sold. Thus fingers are required to move the knot.

Totally confusing, Silvan made the Pavel trick famous, and showed it on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was all the rage when it came to market. The instructions only describe the regular dissolving knot. As far as to touch the knot to move it, or to do as Silvan did and shake the silk for it to drop down and then finally to the floor or container. Is immaterial in my opinion, but I suppose I am why off of what you guys are discussing.
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JNeal
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I learned the tying of the knot from PAVEL around 1970. He did it in his act and lecture, and was kind enough to teach it to me. but I never really tie a complete false knot. I go thru' the motions of creating the knot (as shown on the video clips above) and that allows me to move the fake knot into position midway down the silk. And in the action of tightening the knot, the knot I am creating.... melts away as the fake come into view.
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Sealegs
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Bill; Here's the way the knots are formed in the foam loop method in operation;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZxLWruEa0k

and; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyii_nLJFAM&t=1m42s

The hands aren't involved with the part of the hanky where the knot ends up being formed...

and here's the way the knots are formed in the weighted loop method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J45PAsDghsU

and : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzltVzx94MM (Or better still look at JNeal's 1st video clip in his post)

With this method the hands are involved at the part of the hanky where the knots are formed.

In all these clips that use the weighted version the performers have elected to manually slide the knots off but they need not have done... they could have chosen to 'jiggle' them off using gravity and so not havd to touch them had they wanted.

I hope that helps show the difference a little clearer. Both can be effective.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Bob Sanders
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Still wrong!
Bob Sanders

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Bob Sanders
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Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
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Still wrong!
Bob Sanders

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JNeal
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I guess Bob is DOUBLY sure it is still wrong!
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Dan Ford
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Bob is right, as far as I am concerned!
hugmagic
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Pavel must be laughing in his grave. Jeff McBride even has a version out now. Sometimes, I think we overthink things as magicians.
Richard
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Sealegs
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Bob, so far you've said there are two versions of this effect; the foam loop method and the weighted loop method.

You've also said that, with the weighted loop method, after the knot has been tied, you perform the knot removal one handed without the need to slide it off.

We are agreed on all those points... and I've made those same points myself, several times, in this thread.

I've also posted links to videos that show the difference between the handlings of the knot formation with the two methods.

Your response is that I'm still wrong. Previously you said I was 'entirely wrong' but that was about a point I hadn't made. In fact I'd made the opposite point... so I rather thought that might mean I was 'entirely right' but as you say I'm, 'still(?) wrong', apparently not

It might be of interest to those contemplating buying this effect if you could explain in what way I am 'still wrong' or indeed 'entirely wrong' with regard to this effect. Of course I'd be interested too as I'm always keen to learn.

Perhaps you can you expound a bit more as to why, and in what way, I and the video clips I linked to are wrong?

Cheers.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Bill Hegbli
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I got my version of the trick from Supreme Magic years ago. It came with printed instructions, but they were not clear at all on the knot process, but it looked to me to be the way the last video with the gentleman with the accent. Many years later, I learned of the version by P & A Silk Magic. It was much easier to do, because all you had to do was bring the end up and "tie" the knot, and the pulling looked exactly like tightening a knot on the silk. As there was no name for it, I called it the "Figure 8 Knot", because that is what it does to the knot and it looks like a figure 8.

I never liked the look of the sponge (I believe you are calling it the "foam knot") knot is just too big, and looked funny (in my opinion). My Supreme version is not foam or weighted. With the original handling, I can shake the knot off, but it does not look as good as the Figure 8 Knot, and with "figure 8" I have to move the knot with my fingers. I am assuming that the "Figure 8 Knot" is the Pavel method, I would expect nothing less from P&A Silk Magic.

Going back and rereading the original comments, as this only came with printed instructions and very poor or not enough illustrations, I would say, you gentleman are discussing each other's understanding of the instructions. Which, in our time, that is all there was, if the instructions were poorly written. A magician can only take his previous knowledge to call on to accomplish the process.

I do thank you for pointing out the difference, as now I learned the 1st move part of taking the silk up over the hand holding the silk will give additional cover in the "Figure 8 Knot" method.

This I have never used as stand alone trick, I always used it in conjunction with a dove production, candle production, or a bottle production.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
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