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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Smooth as silk » » Knots-Off Silk (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob Sanders
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The trick to the knot Pavel taught me is that you do indeed make a figure "6". The real knot is about midway between the top corner of the silks and the middle corners of the silk. (All loops are threaded in the beginning but only "dropped" one at a time. You do not have knots at both ends at once.) The thick center of the silk must absolutely be below the real knot. (The loop will not fit over both!)
Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Thanks to Bob for the reply. Much appreciated.

It's left me with more questions than it's supplied answers though as I can't follow or picture what's been posted Smile

So I've PM'd Bob with what I think he might mean, and explained where and what my confusions are in what he's posted. The reason for PM'ing him rather than posting it all here is that to describe the handling(s) in any more detail than we've already gone into might be too much for what is an open forum.

I'm happy to post it here though if anyone is interested and no one thinks that matters too much? I personally don't think that this particular part of the Café gets searched by the casually curious. I think that unless you have an interest in silk magic or someone does the Knots Off Silk and wins AGT with it this area of the Café is pretty safe. But for now I'll stick with the not bending the rules anymore than this thread might already have done.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Bob Sanders
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Thank you!
Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Via PM'ing it seems I had managed to get what Bob was describing in his description and I thank him for taking the time to both read and respond to my PM in such a friendly and helpful way.

Bob's preferred method is (to me at least) a variation on one of the methods already looked at within this thread... with the weighted nature of gimmick allowing it to perhaps do a minor part of the work that the hand(s) would otherwise do at least in possibly finishing off the apparently forming 'knot'. (and then sliding itself off the hanky in the same way that the non-weighted, non-foam loop gimmicks can.) Whether it's different enough to make me; entirely wrong and; still wrong is in my opinion both; entirely open and; still open to debate. Smile

Let's just say that this looks to me like a case where one man's slight variation (as I see it) is another man's completely different method (as I think Bob sees it) That's fair enough. Smile

For me the main and most important difference in the different methodologies is the non involvement of the hands at the location on the hanky at which the knot is formed. This is what the foam loop method brought to the effect. From what Bob's been generous enough to discuss with me (but without having had the benefit of seeing it performed) it doesn't seem that his preferred version has removed this element of non involvement. Maybe there's marginally less involvement?

But minor variation or completely different method, it sounds like something that I'd like to see in action... Pavel was a clever man for sure... and his handlings were reliably sound and well thought out.

I hope others have found this thread on this quick but effective item to have been an interesting and informative as I have.

Cheers everyone and if anyone has anything else to add I'd be interested to hear. Smile
Neal Austin

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JNeal
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Personally, I am less concerned with the how many hands are used or their relative involvement in placing the fake knot, as I am in how long they take to create the knot, and how closely the tying process replicates the 'normal' actions that an audience member might take.
Every audience member has had experience tying a knot and if the performer takes too long in forming one, or goes through unusual efforts... it calls undue attention to what should be a casual act.
The knot formed for this trick and the process for creating it, should not have the studied and focussed attention of creating a knot for the Slydini silks, for example.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
Sealegs
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JNeal, I'm sure your preferences are, as they should be, down to what best suits your performance.

I totally agree that It's important that the forming of the knot should mimic how someone would, themselves, tie one... both in actions and in the time it takes.

For some styles of presentation a casual approach is going to work best... the casualness (along with the exact mimicking of the actions of forming a knot) helps to make everything look completely innocent. This strengthens the moment when the knot comes off.

My preference is also down to what suits my performance best.

I have a verbally scripted presentation where the script is about the knot and why I am tying it. This brings the focus onto the knot in a different way. It sets up an anticipation that something is going to happen with the knot.... and then the actions are repeated for subsequent knots and their removal. For this style of presentation I think a slightly more focused attention to the tying of the knot, while still precisely mimicking the actions of the way a normal knot is created, adds to the strength of the effect. In this example then, the openness and cleanness helps strengthen the magic moment.

For this approach there has to be a recognition of the distinction between; creating a knot in a natural looking, open and clean manner; and creating one in an unnatural, slow and protracted manner.

For the casual nonchalant approach different distinctions have to be ensured... it can't be so nonchalant that the audience misses it's actually been tied... or so casual it the audience can't see what the hands are supposed to have done.

Different styles, different requirements.

J Neal's video clips show how the casual approach should be done perfectly... casual and nonchalant, but evidently clear and subtly pointed, so the audience misses nothing.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
JNeal
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SeaLegs... I agree100% !
From your description, you are making a much more pointed presentation than my own. For me, it is one of a series of about 5 magical moments that create one routine. You are capable of making more of it and my kudos to you! (That is a word you don;t see much anymore! KUDOS)

It would be such a pleasure to see you work...perhaps one day.... I sure like the way you think!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
Bob Sanders
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See me at Magic Valley Magic October 2-3 and I'll teach you how to tie the knot. (It's FREE!)

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=31
Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Jonathan, thanks for those kind words.... my routine works well for my audiences but I can't help but feel that this is still one of those routines that I could do even better with.

The premise of my routine is that I form a knot in the hanky to remind me of something.... and the thing I want the knot to remind me of is not to do the knot in the hanky trick.... but as there was no knot to remind me not to do the trick I've obviously now started doing it.... and the trick is that the knot comes off the hanky... which means there's then no longer a knot in the hanky to remind me not to do the knot in the hanky trick! ... so I end up starting to do it (and I start to do it again to illustrate the fact)...up until I tie the knot in the hanky again... and then that reminds me not to do the trick I've now started... But as it's now too late (I've already tied the knot) I have to fnish the trick again and slide the knot off the hanky... and the reason I don't want to do knot in the hanky trick is because... it ruins the hanky... and that's when I reveal 2 holes left in the hanky

So the script has a humorous, self referencing framing which works for me and gets laughs and a really good reaction from the final payoff of the holes in the hanky... but even though it goes well and gets the reaction I'm aiming for I nevertheless feel that the script and premise are (perhaps) slightly too clever for their (and my) own good.

I can't help but think that I have something better within me as a presentation for this effect... but because the routine works, is original and it gets a good reaction... I don't feel under any pressure (self imposed or otherwise) to find whatever other premise might be out there for me to create with this effect that might be a better alternative. Smile
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Bill Hegbli
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Just seen today, that Jeff McBride is selling the version referenced by Sealegs.

https://www.magicalwisdom.com/shop/p/sta......lk-bekos
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
Dan Ford
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I have the BEKOS silk trick and think it is a great effect. A great buy!
wally
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Anyone else got JEFF McBride - BEKOS - BEST EVER KNOTS OFF SILK. is it worth the price.
Bob Sanders
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One of the real questions in dealing with Knots-Off silk is would you rather the tied knot untie itself and slide down the silk while the silk is touched by only one hand or are you willing to have the audience watch you slide the "knots" down using your other hand TOO.

Dancers can use two hands. I think magicians should tie the knot and never touch the prop again with the other hand until the knots are OFF. It is simply more visual.

Also I seldom see an act where the remaining silk is used or vanished. Why make it the end of the routine to show the silk?
Bob Sanders

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Sealegs
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Bob said,"I think magicians should tie the knot and never touch the prop again with the other hand until the knots are OFF"

This is where Bob and I have differing opinions and differing ways at looking at the performance of magic as unlike Bob I don't think magicians 'should' do anything. As I have said in this thread, differing approaches can better suit differing presentations,... and good examples of this within this thread are the completely different presentations of this effect by me and JNeal.

Even if I were to agree with Bob that what he is suggesting is, 'simply more visual,' (and in my opinion this is not necessarily the case) there might well be some instances where a more precise control over the removal of the knot from the silk is more desirable. Indeed Bob asked, "... would you rather the tied knot untie itself and slide down the silk while the silk is touched by only one hand or are you willing to have the audience watch you slide the "knots" down using your other hand... ?"

Well for my particular routine the latter is definitely better, so yes, I would rather the audience watch me slide the knot off with my other hand as it's the best method for my routine. For other routine's this may well not be the case.

If we all did what someone else say we 'should' do there would be no advancement, no originality and no creativity.

Advancement, originality and creativity come from people who don't do what 'should' be done. It's always worth while knowing what 'rule' is being broken though as often there are good reasons as to why something is usually done a certain way. But there is rarely one answer that fits all people and all situations with all effects.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Dick Oslund
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I've been doing "silk knots" since the '40s. I learned the "Slydini Knots' on July 4, 1941. (i.e. I learned how it was DONE. I was 9. It took a couple years to learn how to DO it. --And, then, a few more years to learn how to DO it so that it was ENTERTAINING!

TARBELL, RALPH HULL, et al, sure helped, too. I've enjoyed reading this thread. I've learned to LISTEN when someone who KNOWS and, DOES, talks!

At my age, I doubt that I'll ever put the Knots Off into the act, BUT, it's nice to know that I'm in "good company" (magicians who are also artists!)

Thanks to ALL who contributed their expertise!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Sealegs
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Bob wrote, "Also I seldom see an act where the remaining silk is used or vanished. Why make it the end of the routine to show the silk?".

The same thought occurred to me round about this time last year.... and so I wrote the knots-off-silk effect into a silk routine for show I help put together each year for the Edinburgh Festival. It was the first of several effects with the same silk and as a magically strong throw-away it was a very effective lead into the other effects.

And while I agree with bob that a follow up use for the silk is seldom seen (but to be honest I think the effect itself is seldom seen) I think it's pertinent to mention that the clip JNeal included within this very thread shows him going on to use the silk for a (very effectively performed) follow up effect.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
JNeal
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Thanks for mentioning that SeaLegs !
Yes, I do a knot off silk and that silk is then used with a similar sized silk of a different color to do an ungimmicked Blendo, which then is used for a silk thru rope (ribbon in my case).
So this routine combines three effects- none of which is less than 40 years old (and two of them are at least 70) into a sequence that most lay audiences perceive as being:"something new... As I've never seen it!"

Such is the power of doing silk magic.. It is new to a new generation!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
Dick Oslund
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Amen! Jon!

Silks add flash, color, beauty, and only a few ounces to the props. Generally, the EFFECTS that they help produce are VISUAL, and VISIBLE!

Well cared for, they can last indefinitely! I've been using some 36" Rice "picture" silks since "forever".

The 18" silks used for color change silks 20th Century, etc. because they are jammed into props, and/or knotted, will show wear, depending on the number of shows. BUT, realistically speaking, they are well worth the cost, when you consider the EFFECT on the spectators!

Further, the EFFECTS that can be produced with silks, can appeal to almost any age audience.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Rainboguy
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For what it's worth, I particularly love beautiful, colorful, RAINBOW silks!

And, again, FWIW, my Rice's 12 x 25 Foot Rainbow Streamer as the Climax of Duke's Die Version is pretty darn hard to beat!

Hence the nickname Rainboguy
Dick Oslund
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Well! It may be "hard to beat", (here comes the "but":::) BUT, IT,S A $#@% TO IRON! hee hee

Way back (when I was a "First o' May") they were called "JAZZ" silks. --And, before Harold Rice, they were tie dyed. Pretty, though.

I can remember helping Clem Magrum pack up his school show on a "few" occasions. In the early '50s, he carried ten pieces of luggage! He closed with a tip over production box about 24" x 18" x 18". (A tip over box, for you Johnny Come Lately guys, is
about 95% load!!!

Clem was trying to do a THURSTON show, by himself, 3 and 4 times a day on the school show circuit! He did a 50 minute program, that needed a 35-40 minute set up, and, a 30 minute tear down, pack up, and, load out. He did "all" the messy tricks, like Lota, funnel, bowl of water production (the old table load) etc. A Marshall blooming bouquet, was a feature. He had five tables to set up, two P&Ls with 18" x 24" tops, two Thayer Elephants, and a special made oversize "card table" for that ##@$% tip over box! If you own "Kid Stuff Five" I put a picture of Clem's stage in it. (Page 479)

That %#@& box took 8 minutes to unload! He had every 36" picture silk that Rice, Tannen, Davenport, and, Abbott, made, plus a 6 foot butterfly, and a >>>24" x 180 foot rainbow silk streamer<<<.! [Along with every thing from spring "babies" to alarm clocks (loaded in under cover of the streamer)and a suit of long red flannel underwear, and "assorted" items too numerous to mention!]If I remember, it finished with a prop skunk, and an "Abbott Rabbit" plus a 6 foot flag staff.

As a "guest", I was drafted to refold (accordion fold) the 180' streamer. Hence MY nickname: "Fumble Fingers".

I learned a lot from Clem. (What TO DO, and what NOT TO DO!)I wrote about Clem's show, and many other old pro's in my book.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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