The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Aronson's stack vs. Tamariz's stack ? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
elie brown
View Profile
New user
87 Posts

Profile of elie brown
Do you have any preference ?

If I want to learn one, what is the best one ?

Thanks a lot...
pearljamjeff
View Profile
Inner circle
I live inside your computer.
1243 Posts

Profile of pearljamjeff
Osterlind's stack.
Jeff Travilla - Author of "The Extractor." I work in advertising and marketing now. If you are a professional worker and need marketing help, feel free to contact my company. JCM Media Group.
The Amazing Noobini
View Profile
Inner circle
Oslo, Norway
1658 Posts

Profile of The Amazing Noobini
You are probably going to get a long string of conflicting opinions on this, so let me offer the first one; Mnemonica. (The first one to actually answer the question, that is).

Having now learned both, I feel qualified to say this (and don't learn both yourself as this is not without conflict).

The Aronson stack has a lot of built in effects, but I feel that for instance the Poker demonstrations I already know which are impromptu, are stronger.

I feel that Mnemonica is a more progressive system with more new young users and higher probability for future stack dependent material. This is partially because the stack can be easily shuffled into a Stay Stack so you really have two stacks in one.

As the order is also derived from (and can be returned to) a full ordered deck, then you should have a lot more possibilities to make other effects work, such as those based on a running order of cards.

There are more nifty Mnemonica features as well. An alarming number of people advice others here that it doesn't matter at all what you choose. But it does and very much so. If they say otherwise it is because they haven't yet found enough of the features under the hood. Smile
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Waterloophai
View Profile
Inner circle
Belgium
1183 Posts

Profile of Waterloophai
What is the best one ?
That depends on what you mean with "the best".
There are TWO main issues concerning a MD.
1) What you can do with the particular stack-order of a stack
2) How easy, and more important: the system that is used to memorize the cards and what if I don't use the stack for a couple of months? What if a have a sudden black-out during a performance?

1) What you can do with the stack-order?
That is a very personal choice. If you like poker-routines, Aronson is the stack to have. The former poster (Noobini) states that it matter which stackorder you choose. I disagree with that. I respect his opinion but it is a personal choice. I for example have constructed my own stack. Why? All of the tricks (Aronson and Tamariz) who are embedded in their stacks are good tricks but... that's all. They are not killer-tricks. It is not for THOSE tricks that a mastered a MD. In my case, it is just the opposite of what is stated. I use my stack for more subtle reasons and for other tricks than those in the books of the main MD's.
2) The system that is used to memorize the cards.
I think (I am convinced) that this is very important issue too. Study the different stacks very carefully before you make a choice. I will not go in detail, but it is very reassuring if you have a "life-buoy" in case of a black out...
I know, if you use the system every single day, there is no problem. But hey, 98% are amateurs and don't use it every day.
Noobini is 100% right when he writes: "You are probably going to get a long string of conflicting opinions on this." All those "conflicting opinions" prove that it is a personal choice.
So my advize is: you cannot read enough about all the systems that there are before you make a decision and think good what you want to do with a MD.
And.... watch out: read the advizes with care: (almost) every magician thinks HIS chosen system is the best.
puggo
View Profile
Inner circle
1975 Posts

Profile of puggo
Great posts from both Noobini and Waterloophai.
I learnt a stack about a year ago, and I learnt the Osterlind BCS, mainly because I had learnt the BCS sequential system, and was familliar with it (and liked the idea of a fallback). Oh, and some really strong effects with the BCS on the Mind Mysteries series.

For me, I don't do a lot of gambling stuff, and wanted to perform (imho)'killer' routines such as Michael Close's 'Luckiest Cards in Las Vegas', a variation of Sankey's 'Shape of Things to Come', and a variation of the 'Birthday Trick'. I have also recently discovered (years after everyone else!) Larry Davidson's Scripted Insanity, and am working on '808'.

I really respect Larry Davidson's thinking regarding stacks (and marking), and would recommend checking it out.

How will you be learning the stack? This may be a factor. Check out the shuffled not stirred section, you will find some really helpful advice there, such as MilesG stackviewer:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=205
Or this:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=205
and much more..
Aronson's web site is a great resource for learning (I can't comment on Tamariz).
Michael Close has some inspirational stack work..

All of the above just my 2pence / cents, so good luck!
Charlie
Cohiba
View Profile
Special user
Michigan
749 Posts

Profile of Cohiba
Rather than suggest a stack, I'm going to offer some conclusions I've come to. While they seem like common sense to me, people disagree all the time with me (in forums like this). Already in this thread there is disagreement, so I would recommend reading up on these things before making a final decision.

1 - Just as with any sleight you're working on, don't perform with a MD before you're ready. If you don't have it memorized, you're not ready. On the other hand, once you have it memorized, even a hobbyist running through the order once every week or two will not lose it. To me it seems like an incredible waste to memorize a deck for it's built-in "crutch" capabilities, especially when once memorized, the crutch won't be needed.

2 - As Waterloophai stated, the strongest effects with MD's are typically ones which aren't tied into the stack itself. However, my thinking is that if you're going to memorize a stack, why not have as much built into it as possible? With the effort you're putting in, let's max out the reward as much as possible. Aronson and Tamariz are probably the two most influential MD workers ever, and they took this same approach.

3 - Though most of the built-in effects are not as strong as the MD independent effects, there are effects that can rival them using a stack of their own. As an example, suppose you were a fan of the original Out Of This World. You could take a deck, shuffle the reds, and shuffle the blacks, put them together, and do some faros. Pick an iteration that appeals to you. (Maybe set up some other random looking things that you can take advantage of while you're at it.) If you use one of these iterations as your MD, you now have the ability to close your MD work with OOTW, a routine which is one of the strongest out there. I've had discussions with others on the Café about this, and others have done this or very similar things. Do a search on MD on the Café - there's some good stuff out there.

4 - I don't think this is debated much anymore - but standard (non-memorized) stacks - while powerful - cannot accomplish what memorized stacks can. Don't let anyone fool you otherwise.

5 - I'd recommend reading up as much as possible before deciding. Definitely check out Aronson's work and Mnemonica. There's some other stuff out there as well worth digging into - again, the Café search would bring up a lot of it.

Happy hunting!
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2501 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
Everything stated here is sound advice. My contribution is simply a link dealing with various types of stacks. It's an essay written by Doug Dyment and may help you think about other considerations as well:

http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Waterloophai
View Profile
Inner circle
Belgium
1183 Posts

Profile of Waterloophai
I can understand that all the advizes, where some on the first sight maybe in conflict with each other, may confuse you.
It sounds maybe strange, but all the advizes have their own merit and are in a certain sence all true.
Let one thing be clear: whatever system you choose, choose one and learn a MD !!!
It is a mighty waepon and with the years you learn more and more the benefits of it. You will not regret it. It is one of the best investments that you can do.
After years and years of use you will experience the fact that a MD is much more than a pokerdeal or a stupid spellingtrick.
The Amazing Noobini
View Profile
Inner circle
Oslo, Norway
1658 Posts

Profile of The Amazing Noobini
The problem with making your own stack is that you're on your own, whereas with any of the more widely used memorized decks you are going to have hundreds, if not thousands of very clever people worldwide who look for new features and possibilities within that stack.

I would love to make my own stack with a few built in things that I like, but frankly I'm not as smart as those other guys. And they have that huge team working with them.

For instance, the final thing that won me over to Mnemonica is a feature that Denis Behr reveals in his book Handcrafted Card Magic (page 20) which is not stack independent. You could obtain the same result with the Aronson stack, but not with the same speed and ease and without disturbing more of the stack. It is not a ready made built in feature, but a result of what in my opinion is a more flexible system.

For the record, both stacks offer several Poker features, but they are not the same ones. So what you choose certainly matters. (Mnemonica has the feature of dealing any Poker hand called for, but it involves more "work" than simply cutting to a specific place in the deck).

But like the others state, most likely you will find the most use out of the simple stack independent fact that you know where all the cards are. But the differences in structure still matter a lot.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Cohiba
View Profile
Special user
Michigan
749 Posts

Profile of Cohiba
Hey Noob, what is the effect of Dennis' that you refer to?
The Amazing Noobini
View Profile
Inner circle
Oslo, Norway
1658 Posts

Profile of The Amazing Noobini
Cohiba, I didn't want to go into detail here as the book mentions that it is a little known feature of the Mnemonica stack, this certain little thing. For instance, it isn't mentioned in the book Mnemonica, as far as I can tell.

As this reading for me was what was worth the price of the book more than anything else, I didn't want to take that "treasure" away from him by posting it here.

But of course, it isn't like it's the world's most intimate secret, so I'll send you a PM. Smile
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
dfeder
View Profile
Regular user
126 Posts

Profile of dfeder
My 2 cents - I've been using the Aronson Stack for 6 years and don't find a need to learn anything else. I've also marked my deck using Boris Wild's marking system. For me, the bottom line is that you use what you are comfortable with. Especially when working out there in front of an audience. Simon also has a lot of material in his books about his stack including great routines.

Dov
Waterloophai
View Profile
Inner circle
Belgium
1183 Posts

Profile of Waterloophai
Quote:
On 2009-08-07 08:52, dfeder wrote:
I've been using the Aronson Stack for 6 years and don't find a need to learn anything else. I've also marked my deck using Boris Wild's marking system. For me, the bottom line is that you use what you are comfortable with. Especially when working out there in front of an audience.
Dov

Indeed, why should you learn something else when you are comfotable with what you know very good. A MD and marked....the only problem with that combination is that you become a sorcerer instead of a magician. Smile. You can perform miracles instead of tricks.
Dennis Loomis
View Profile
1943 - 2013
2113 Posts

Profile of Dennis Loomis
Lots of good thoughts here already. You will not go wrong, in choosing a stack to memorize in selecting either the Aronson or Mnemonica. These are the two stacks for which the most material has already been worked out. I use the Aronson, but that's because when I took up mem-deck work, I knew little about mnemonica. But I'm happy with the Aronson stack.

In another thread the possibility of memorizing more than one stack is discussed. I was concerned that it might create a conflict and water down your speed with the first stack, but there are individuals that have learned two stacks and I'm sure it can be done.

Osterlind's Breakthrough was not originally developed as a stack to memorize. It was a stack which allowed you to CALCULATE the next or previous cards. And Richard does some great card magic with it. Later, he published a book outlining the mnemonic devices you can use to memorize it as well.

The marking system that Boris Wild uses is based on a principle by Ted Lesley. It is available in a printed version, but alas only as a stripper deck as well. I wish they would sell it with only the marks. There are many wonderful effects that you can do with a deck that is both marked and memorized. See the work of Larry Davidson for some good examples. And don't forget, after doing an effect or several based on the memorization, you can have the deck legitimately shuffled, but still have the marks to assist you in further effects.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
DustinF
View Profile
New user
58 Posts

Profile of DustinF
Personally I like the Aronson stack. The primary reason I chose this stack over the Tamariz stack is the gambling routine that is built into the Aronson stack.
Bobby Forbes
View Profile
Inner circle
virginia beach, VA.
1464 Posts

Profile of Bobby Forbes
Jaun Tamariz has a ton of gambling demo's "built in" as well. A few displacements of a couple cards and you have miracles with this stack. Not to mention the whole new deck order thing as well as stay stack. I've learned the Joyal, aronson, and mnemonica stacks. And I'm currently memorizing the hacker stack by Steven Youell. I think my primary stack will always be mnemonica with the hacker stack coming in at a close second. Mnemonica is just too darn good. And by the way, a big thank you to Harry Lorayne for his memory techniques. Now memorizing pretty much anything is becoming an addiction of mine. It's actually fun lol.
Harry Lorayne
View Profile
V.I.P.
New York City
8330 Posts

Profile of Harry Lorayne
Hey Bobby: My pleasure! HARRY L.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Larry Davidson
View Profile
Inner circle
Potomac, MD
5259 Posts

Profile of Larry Davidson
Puggo and Dennis, thanks for the mention! Yup, a deck that's both marked and memorized can be used to produce some incredibly powerful effects.
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
You could learn my stack here in the secret sessions. Not because it is mine but because it is a palyndromic stack (or mirror stack) and this offers possibilities which neither Juan (who knows the principle very well: I learned it from him) or Aaronson stacks do not offer.

It's not that I'm so keen on having many people using it. But it has something more, it's even easier to learn, and there are no color sequences to detect.

Look it up and I will feel perfect if you decide to go to Simon Aaronson's or Juan Tamariz's excellent stack. If you intend to use a stack for gambling demonstrations however, I would suggest you not to pass by Claude Rix's published stack
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
EdgarWilde
View Profile
Regular user
110 Posts

Profile of EdgarWilde
Lawrence, don't you mean stay-stack?
Mnemonica DOES offer a way to get into that with a bit of work (either twiddling or a nice effect).
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Aronson's stack vs. Tamariz's stack ? (1 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.49 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL