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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Aronson's stack vs. Tamariz's stack ? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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korttihai_82
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A minor thing that I didn't see mentioned in this topic yet howeever is that if you make your own stack, it will have YOUR favourite effects build into it and YOU are only one able to regonize it Smile Sadly most magicians know at least the first few or last cards from Aronson and Tamariz stack and flashing of nine of diamonds on the bottom of the deck starts to be a huge give away if you ever intend to use any stack routine to your fellow magicians.

That said, I am still happy with my Tamariz stack =)

J-M
The Amazing Noobini
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True but you probably need a great many years of performing experience before you know which effects the audiences never get tired of. Something so good that you want it built into the deck. Also it would have to be effects with a setup that you cannot just as well do impromptu. Or there would be no point.

For instance, I can set up my current Poker effect and let the spectator shuffle twice and then do some minor repair adjustments and go into it. So it doesn't need to be built in. And when eventually you improve upon your effects you are stuck with an outdated version in the stack.

I agree about the 9D. I've thought about maybe ditching it in certain settings. The 9D is a conflict card for me as I have it strongly crimped. For effects following the memdeck work I will not be able to improvise a quick crimp and cut to it without looking because the 9D will always be stronger. So I would have to cull it into place instead and any key card flashes would still be the same 9D they saw before.

Some interesting Faro possibilities with a 51 card deck too.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
tomboston
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I have just memorized the Mnemonica stack and am having fun playing aroung with it and learning some of the routines in Tamariz's book. I like the "any hand called for" poker routines but I haven't found a good way of resetting after each deal. If anyone can help me please let me know. Thanks!
Dennis Loomis
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A quick comment about the techniques used to memorize various stacks. If you choose the Aronson Stack and get his book "Bound to Please" he explains the mnemonic system he used to learn it. However, there are some very different learning exercises in Mnemonica. You can adapt them to help you learn the Aronson Stack as well. There are quite a few different memory systems and techniques available. When I learned the Aronson Stack I used Harry Lorayne's key words for playing cards which in some cases are different from the ones that Simon Aronson suggests. I did that because I had already been working with the Lorayne code words and saw no reason to change. Some people may find they prefer to just use rote memory, simply drilling on the stack numbers and the cards associated with them. What method you use is up to you, and in the end, unimportant. What's important is that you memorize the stack. Remember, the Aronson Stack and the Mnemonica Stack are NOT memorized decks for you until you memorize one.

As to the effects which are built into the Aronson Stack and the Tamariz Mnemonica Stack... many of them can be done even if you don't have the deck memorized. For example, you can certainly learn Simon's wonderful three phase poker deal (or any one of those phases) even if you do not have the deck memorized. Also, never forget that it's a pretty easy thing to switch decks in front of lay people. Then you could do something like this: Start with a deck in Aronson Stack order which you do NOT have memorized and do his three phase poker deal. Have the deck shuffled. Do any of the many effects which allow you to switch the deck in the process. After the switch, you now have a deck in Mnemonica order which you DO have memorized so you can do any of the great Mnemonica effects, possibly ending with the cards back in New Deck Order as your finale.

Remember the stacks which were created to be memorized, more mathematically based stacks like Osterlinds or Si Stebbins, and the "doggerel" stacks are all just tools for magicians to use. Depending on the shows you are doing and the routines you want to do in a particular show, you select the proper tool for the job. Many people on the Café act as if they use one particular stack, that's all they can ever use. Poppycock. I have some tricks I do with a Si Stebbins Stack, One that I do with the Eight Kings Stack, and lots that I do with the Aronson Stack. It is silly to say that one stack is "better" than another. That's like saying a screwdriver is better than a hammer and so a carpenter should use a screwdriver and not a hammer. Good carpenters will have uses for both of those tools and many others.

And don't forget... there are advantageous to tricks that can be done with a shuffled deck. I would suggest that any good card magician should know some of those so that they can use a borrowed deck should they be caught without their own deck, or for those times when their stacked deck is disarranged either accidentally or purposefully.

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
The Amazing Noobini
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Quote:
On 2009-10-04 17:02, Dennis Loomis wrote:
It is silly to say that one stack is "better" than another. That's like saying a screwdriver is better than a hammer and so a carpenter should use a screwdriver and not a hammer. Good carpenters will have uses for both of those tools and many others.


I think that image is very subjective though... To that I would answer "but what if you're not a carpenter but an electrician?"

Depending on your style and material preferences, one of the two would IMHO be clearly better than the other. As we are talking about choosing just one to memorize here.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2009-10-04 17:02, Dennis Loomis wrote:
A quick comment about the techniques used to memorize various stacks. If you choose the Aronson Stack and get his book "Bound to Please" he explains the mnemonic system he used to learn it. However, there are some very different learning exercises in Mnemonica. You can adapt them to help you learn the Aronson Stack as well. There are quite a few different memory systems and techniques available. When I learned the Aronson Stack I used Harry Lorayne's key words for playing cards which in some cases are different from the ones that Simon Aronson suggests. I did that because I had already been working with the Lorayne code words and saw no reason to change. Some people may find they prefer to just use rote memory, simply drilling on the stack numbers and the cards associated with them. What method you use is up to you, and in the end, unimportant. What's important is that you memorize the stack. Remember, the Aronson Stack and the Mnemonica Stack are NOT memorized decks for you until you memorize one.

As to the effects which are built into the Aronson Stack and the Tamariz Mnemonica Stack... many of them can be done even if you don't have the deck memorized. For example, you can certainly learn Simon's wonderful three phase poker deal (or any one of those phases) even if you do not have the deck memorized. Also, never forget that it's a pretty easy thing to switch decks in front of lay people. Then you could do something like this: Start with a deck in Aronson Stack order which you do NOT have memorized and do his three phase poker deal. Have the deck shuffled. Do any of the many effects which allow you to switch the deck in the process. After the switch, you now have a deck in Mnemonica order which you DO have memorized so you can do any of the great Mnemonica effects, possibly ending with the cards back in New Deck Order as your finale.

Remember the stacks which were created to be memorized, more mathematically based stacks like Osterlinds or Si Stebbins, and the "doggerel" stacks are all just tools for magicians to use. Depending on the shows you are doing and the routines you want to do in a particular show, you select the proper tool for the job. Many people on the Café act as if they use one particular stack, that's all they can ever use. Poppycock. I have some tricks I do with a Si Stebbins Stack, One that I do with the Eight Kings Stack, and lots that I do with the Aronson Stack. It is silly to say that one stack is "better" than another. That's like saying a screwdriver is better than a hammer and so a carpenter should use a screwdriver and not a hammer. Good carpenters will have uses for both of those tools and many others.

And don't forget... there are advantageous to tricks that can be done with a shuffled deck. I would suggest that any good card magician should know some of those so that they can use a borrowed deck should they be caught without their own deck, or for those times when their stacked deck is disarranged either accidentally or purposefully.

Dennis Loomis



Excellent post, Dennis, that is right on the mark! (And not just about card stacks)

Richard
tomboston
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Great post Dennis,

Love your idea of using one stack in a non-memorized way and then doing a deck switch to the other stack which you have memorized.
Dennis Loomis
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To Noobini,
Yes, the question posed was which of the two stacks is better. My whole point is that I reject the premise that either one is inherently better. A great magic act is about entertaining and fooling the audience. Making them want to see you perform again. I've seen Juan Tamariz do that with the Mnemonica Stack, but I've also seen Mike Close and Simon Aronson do that with the Aronson Stack, and Richard Osterlind do it with the Breakthrough System and Gene Anderson do it with the Si Stebbins deck. There are areas in life where you can make such absolute judgements. Two runners have a foot race. Somebody wins and is, at least on that day, better. But magic is a performing ART and judgements of superiority are by necessity subjective.

I would agree that one might ask the question: which is better FOR ME. But the rest of us can't answer that for Mr. Brown.

To Richard Osterlind and tomboston,
Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them.

Finally, you don't have to choose one. I currently have three stacks memorized.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
tomboston
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Dennis,
Which one of Simon Aronson's books contains his poker deal? I think I want to look into this and some more of his stacked effects that are stack independent to use with Mnemonica.

Thanks,
Tom
JanForster
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You find in three of his books material for poker deals, "Bound to Please", "Simply Simon" and "Try the Impossible". But mostly they are stack dependent while most of the other stuff is not. But anyway, IMHO all his books are a must read for MD workers. Jan
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tomboston
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Noobini,

Could you please PM me also regarding the Denis Behr effect you were referring to above? I just memorized the Mnemonica stack and am very interested in any effects with this. This could help me decide whether or not to get Behr's book also. Thanks!
tomboston
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Thanks Jan,

I am going to get some of these books.
Dennis Loomis
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To tomboston,
The Aronson Poker Deals are in Bound to Please. A methodology to reset the Aronson Stack after the Draw Poker Deal is in Try the Impossible.
Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
tomboston
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Thanks Dennis,

I'm going to get these Aronson books. Maybe I will have to memorize another stack (!)

Tom
matt-g
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For the iPhone users there's an appliction from the app' store to assist with learning of Mnemonica
Sean Macfarlane
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Is the any poker hand called for in any of Aronson's Books? Thanks.

Sean
Dennis Loomis
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Rusduck (J. Russell Duck) created a stack which allows you to deal any poker hand called for. In "Cardiste #2" he published this stack, calling it "Zensational." Simon Aronson incorporated this stack into his memorized deck stack; it's explained starting on page 125 in "Bound to Please." You can deal any poker hand from a single pair to a Royal Flush.

Incidentally, there are setups for two different ace-high straight flushes in Simon's stack. The one in hearts I just mentioned, and also one in spades. There's also a King-High Straight Flush in Hearts in the stack.

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
edh
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Are all of these mentioned in Bound to Please?
Magic is a vanishing art.
Dennis Loomis
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All of the Poker Deals are explained in Bound to Please. The Royal Flush in spades is part of the Draw Poker deal and is part of a five hand poker deal. The other ones I mentioned are part of the Zensational stack and are explained in a different area, but they are all there.
Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
edh
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Thanks Dennis.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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