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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Grand illusion » » Penn & Teller on America's Got Talent - sawing in half (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Sam Weiss
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Quote:
On 2009-08-13 18:14, Psychic Samurai wrote:
There are SUCKER illusions to be sure ... The problem here ..Penn and Teller DID NOT INVENT THE DECEPTIVE BASE ... No matter what the size they expose!!!!!
It's not theirs to expose!!!!
No different from the Masked magician.....

They got a gig ... they don't give a crap about the rest of you Smile


Sorry if I didn't explain good enough... I said quote "Also, for most of Penn and Teller's 'reveal' tricks..." Put emphasis on the word "most" in that sentence fragment. I purposely worded it that way because the illusion method P&T "revealed" last night was not one they invented unlike their others. The reason why it's still okay they revealed it I fully described in my second paragraph. In case you missed it though, here it is again, "The fact of the matter is, laypeople once they see the twist ending of the trick, assume the previous exposure was just a sham and never think anything of it."

Please go back and re read what I said to see how I explain it more in depth. Smile

Sam Weiss Smile
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
-Denny Haney
Sam Weiss
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Here is a real horrible video some nut made!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXdpKF7EfKk

I'm guessing that was sarcasm you wrote eh?

That's really ironic since that's one of my friends in that video. He was just parodying all the bad exposure on Youtube. Smile
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
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Dynamike
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Penn and Teller did not expose it. They are really using reverse psychology. People thought they were exposing it at first, but it shows different. If they did not do what they did, the new routine with magic would not have taken place.

If you think they are exposing it, they are "still" tricking you.
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2009-08-13 21:33, Dynamike wrote:
Penn and Teller did not expose it. They are really using reverse psychology. People thought they were exposing it at first, but it shows different. If they did not do what they did, the new routine with magic would not have taken place.

If you think they are exposing it, they are "still" tricking you.


Wake up Mike !!!!

They did it for the money ... They even said ..THIS IS HOW EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT !!!
(Doesn't matter if the bases are smaller for the other guys... only magicians know that .. they look the same to a layman)

They don't give a RA if you complain or if you buy into the BS ... They got the $$$$$$$$

Just like the Masked Magician.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Sam Weiss
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Quote:
On 2009-08-13 22:47, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-08-13 21:33, Dynamike wrote:
Penn and Teller did not expose it. They are really using reverse psychology. People thought they were exposing it at first, but it shows different. If they did not do what they did, the new routine with magic would not have taken place.

If you think they are exposing it, they are "still" tricking you.


Wake up Mike !!!!

They did it for the money ... They even said ..THIS IS HOW EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT !!!
(Doesn't matter if the bases are smaller for the other guys... only magicians know that .. they look the same to a layman)

They don't give a RA if you complain or if you buy into the BS ... They got the $$$$$$$$

Just like the Masked Magician.


If you actually knew P&T personally you would know they don't do it for the money. Denny Haney, the guy who has the same opinion as me, know both Penn and Teller personally. They came into his shop and always chat with him on the phone! I mean of course they want money but they are not doing what they do as some get rich plan.

Have you even asked laymen what they thought like I did? You can't just assume they think that way... and they don't... I asked the four other people that watched it with me separately and they didn't even mention the reveal except for my dad who said, "They did some kind of fake reveal to be funny and they really chopped her in half." That's the truth!

It is incomprehensible how P&T can be compared to that degenerate Masked Magician. It's the same thing as comparing a pickpocket to a purse snatcher.
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
-Denny Haney
Jay Mahon
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I suppose Jarrett and his work is unread here... He explained the method and then did the trick. Nobody believed him...

Suppose people will have to do the Wakeling Sawing now!

J
gulamerian
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The fact still remains the same. They expose methods used by other magicians.
Mr. Mystoffelees
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They expose magic! To say it is OK because they are "stars" is like saying it is OK for any star to violate rules and laws because they are "above" them...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
JoyJoy
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So, when audiences see a proper base, I believe they will immediately say, "Well, this doesn't work THAT way."

No. Even when there is no base, they will say "Ah I know, I already saw that - look they use a base."

(It´s like their explanations "There is a mirror" also if there is none - or now for some "There is a base" well and sometimes they will be right, doesn´t matter how proper it is built.)

But like the MM - it doesn´t bother me.
(It´s their responsibility, sad if it destroys a magical wonder feeling for only one viewer later in his life...)
voodoo
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Why all the people arguing about the deceptive base?

If you watch it very carefully they didn't, they just showing the middle part of the body...not the "real" base
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Fabricem
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Sorry but what you mean?
that isn't an exposure! they didn't expose a base ( that was a giant base )!
if you think yes about the base , :
we expose a trap door when we perform The Magician 's backstage Illusion?
absolutly no!
magic is an other world ,
not just base mirror or trapdoor!
Slim King
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Let's pretend I want to make some quick cash and I don't give a RA about anyone else...

I would EXPOSE Derren Brown's "Coin in Hand" routine ... tell everyone how he did it and then do it like George Taite does. (Much improved)

Would that be right?

Would that be OK with the rest of you?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
gulamerian
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Yes. For those who think there is nothing wrong with Penn and Teller.
magicross
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Love the routine personally, and it really isn't an exposure, laymen no more than magicians give them credit for.

End of the day, Penn and Teller are performers and care what the audience think, not a bunch of magicians, and if we are be honest its the audience who pay your bills not the magicians.
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Quote:
On 2009-08-13 19:27, Sam Weiss wrote:
Quote:
Here is a real horrible video some nut made!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXdpKF7EfKk

I'm guessing that was sarcasm you wrote eh?

That's really ironic since that's one of my friends in that video. He was just parodying all the bad exposure on Youtube. Smile


Sam,

I liked his video. I also like all the jerky 15 yr old comments. Kids are fun (sarcastic).
Sam Weiss
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On 2009-08-14 12:14, gulamerian wrote:
The fact still remains the same. They expose methods used by other magicians.


The fact of the matter is I never said they didn't expose methods. I said the exposure DOES NOT REGISTER IN THE AUDIENCES MINDS. I've said this over and over but all of you who compare P&T to the masked magician just keep on restating what I've already disproved. As I just said, ask a layman who watched it with you what happened and you'll see it didn't register. Unless you purposely word it "Did P&T expose a trick on AGT" they won't recall it.

Quote:
On 2009-08-14 2:18, mandarin wrote:
They expose magic! To say it is OK because they are "stars" is like saying it is OK for any star to violate rules and laws because they are "above" them...


Who ever said that? Not me... that's for sure. Did any one of you actually READ what I said?

Quote:
On 2009-08-14 11:36, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Let's pretend I want to make some quick cash and I don't give a RA about anyone else...

I would EXPOSE Derren Brown's "Coin in Hand" routine ... tell everyone how he did it and then do it like George Taite does. (Much improved)

Would that be right?

Would that be OK with the rest of you?


Now lets be realistic here. Did you even watch it? What they did, as numerous people have already mentioned... They had a clunky bogus piece of apparatus with a huge base and the flaps on the top purposely poorly made. Look at the video and you'll see flaps that wouldn't even be on the cheapest of normal sawing in half illusions. It is purposely made that way to make the audience think after the "real" sawing is done that the other one was obviously fake and no one else does it that way... and I already proved that in the first thing I wrote.


Now that is all I'm going to say on this because I can see this is getting out of hand. I've proved my points and I am not one for internet arguments so let us all virtually shake hands and say you have your opinion and I have mine... and we'll move on Smile
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
-Denny Haney
Slim King
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Sweep it under the carpet then Smile ?

I know the Bullet Catch that Penn and Teller do (Maybe still)

I think it was Banacheks originally ... (Not sure)

I have a much improved version..... (Incredibly funny as the guys head blows off)

SHOULD I EXPOSE PENN AND TELLER'S VERSION AND DO MINE TO SHOW HOW MUCH SMARTER I AM ???????

For the $$$$$$$$$$$$ Is that OK ?

After all, I'm just entertaining the laymen here ... Not the working Magician Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Sam Weiss
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On 2009-08-14 14:26, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Sweep it under the carpet then Smile ?

I know the Bullet Catch that Penn and Teller do (Maybe still)

I think it was Banacheks originally ... (Not sure)

I have a much improved version..... (Incredibly funny as the guys head blows off)

SHOULD I EXPOSE PENN AND TELLER'S VERSION AND DO MINE TO SHOW HOW MUCH SMARTER I AM ???????

For the $$$$$$$$$$$$ Is that OK ?

After all, I'm just entertaining the laymen here ... Not the working Magician Smile


I was being mature... obviously you can't comprehend that.

So I'll tell you what... when you expose their bullet catch and then do your own "improved" version, post it on youtube because I'd really like to see it. I'd like to see it because now you're just telling off their acclaimed bullet catch and saying yours is better.

Both of our arguments are JUST OPINIONS and for that reason we should leave it where it is... we both said our points... I'm not sweeping anything under the carpet, I'm just trying to end this before it gets any more repetitive. Now I'm going to say this one more time and I hope you can be mature enough to do it too... just stop arguing on this topic... the Café is no place for arguing as defined in the Café Etiquette.

Good Day...
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
-Denny Haney
Ray Pierce
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I guess it's time to weigh in on this.

P&T developed the "Bad Boys of Magic" characters when playing a small theater in Hollywood. They had developed a strong show with a short clever routine with the Cups and balls where the closed by doing the routine with clear cups. The bottom line was that it was a skill demonstration that still fooled most people in the same way Goshman did with the salt shaker. If you watched you could see everything but the misdirection was so good you missed most of the real work. Most magicians (who knew the effect already) were not misdirected by the moves so they complained of "exposure". This built into a HUGE controversy which created a PR bonanza for them.

They realized if they could become the "anti-magicians" it would mean standing out from the pack and rising above the fray. They took advantage of it and began developing routines specifically to separate themselves from what Guy Jarret called "Drug Store Magicians" by parlaying people's frustration with bad magic into a bonding experience for their audiences. They hooked people by saying we're going to do what those "other" magicians won't do because we're on your side.

This was the real secret of their success. The understanding of placing themselves alongside their audience in decrying other magicians' pseudo-elitism. They found and capitalized on the sentiments many audience members had with some magicians.... the overly theatrical, super power wielding, ego driven, wind in the hair performers. The pendulum swung the other way as it always does and they got a lot of people on their side.

Their "exposure" hook is what they do. They are no longer cutting edge but playing Vegas along with Rita Rudner and Louie Anderson. They are now "mainstream"... with the younger and newer crop of magicians getting more attention by "breaking the mold" just like they did 25 years ago. Do you think they would have been booked on AGT just doing magic? Probably not. They had to create a hook for the producers so they said "We'll expose one of the classics of magic in the most dramatic illusion ever crated". That's their commodity... their reason for getting booked. They're not getting booked on sex appeal... or pure talent (even though they are both very talented in their own ways). They needed something to sell. That's commerce... and paying their bills.

Should we blame them for their characters and how they've developed their act? We shouldn't because it's our own fault. By creating antagonism and an adversarial relationship with the public... we gave them a reason to creep in. By getting up in arms over their first "exposure", we publicized them. By continuing to get upset over what they do we promote them. They are a product of all of our collective mistakes as a group.

Can we expose the Bullet Catch and Shadows to get back at them? Of course we can but what would that really do? It's been said that you should never get into a fight with someone that buys ink by the barrel. They have a forum on stage, a TV show, and more publicity generating potential than most of us combined.

Why not use the same amount of energy that it takes to get upset over their pseudo exposure... and create better material. Maybe if we would even just work as hard as they do.

Do I agree with everything they do? Of course not. They do some things brilliantly... yet some of their sleight of hand isn't very good at all with stiff joints exposing bad palming and rudimentary misdirection not effectively covering steals and ditches. Personally, I've worked with them and like them both. I understand their reasoning and thought behind their actions. The bottom line is that they are pros who care deeply about what they do and have created a great market for themselves. They are like many of us who love magic but maybe not all magicians. They have found a distinctive way to connect with a large part of the American public in a way that resonates with them.

We should all learn from that.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
JoyJoy
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Wow Ray - perfectly analyzed. Thank you for your great input. You are a great gain here.
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