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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts 
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To clarify: Supernatural does not necessarily imply occult. The distinction might be explained thus-suppose you pretend to be a body language expert, you are claiming to do an ordinary thing (reading non-verbal clues) unusually well, a preternatural ability. If however you are able to know things that cannot be communicated through any somatic means (specific details of someone's childhood for example), you are stepping into the supernatural, which only means beyond natural, not de facto mysticism (a word frequently misunderstood).
It is not simply to be more believable, it is to be truthful in what you say. I gave a ten minute performance for one a couple of nights ago. I was able to tell her a great deal about her recent history (I don't know the woman-we'd never met), a divorce after only a month of marriage, her financial situation, etc. No billets or clipboards. No trickery. That is mentalism. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts
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You need to be true to yourself but you can still be a skeptic and do very strong mentalism.
Take a look at Banachek's stuff...his is a skeptic who has worked closely with Randi and other skeptics for a long time. He does a mentalism show he is comfortable with and sells consistently excellent products along the mentalism line. Maybe you should take a look at how he approaches it. You could also consider real powers...specifically contact mind reading. You are doing exactly what you say you are. Again, look at Banacheck's stuff...one of his DVD's teaches this well. He also has a book on it but I haven't seen it. It takes some work so if you go this route you will have little competition. As far as readings go, you might be comfortable with handwriting analysis or the Rudy Hunter video, "Draw Me a Tree". Both are psychologically based and may fit in to your comfort zone. |
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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2674 Posts
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Derren Brown is a liar but a good one. He just managed to find a place where he was comfortable with the lies he tells. A half-truth is still a lie. It's about being comfortable.
Another way to re-frame mentalism is of course to call effects 'experiments'. You don't have to say how you did it, but you can leave the lingering thought that what just happened was more than just 'a trick'. Or you can say things like 'This is what it might look like if I had real psychic ability.' Using the idea of illusion to create a good moment. Everyone knows that magic isn't real. So even when you do the most incredible magic trick, although it may look as much like real magic as anything is capable of appearing, people still know that it's not possible and it's just a trick. However when you do some mentalism, people aren't so sure. Why? Because people do have some belief in their own minds that this kind of thing is possible. What you are doing is tapping into their own need to believe that they themselves are 'special' and have 'hunches' and extraordinary 'intuition'. With mentalism you are messing with the part of people's minds that wants to believe. Unfortunately with magic, that part of the mind vanished long ago in a puff of science. Which is why in my mind, great mentalism is as close as you can get to what used to be magic. In the minds of the spectator, something extraordinary has happened, and it appears to be more than just a 'trick'. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-08-16 19:10, edh wrote: Then he goes on to give an explanation that more or less is supernatural. etc etc. He can tell with body language what someone is thinking? that's near supernatural to me. Do you know many people who can do that? |
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts
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Sam, the only way a magician can be qualified to become a mentalist is if he passes the book test. I advise you to take a peek in your wallet to see if you can afford it because it is expensive. Make an appointment for the class at the next Mindvention. If no seats are available, ask a mentalist if he can switch billets with you. I tried contacting the president for you, but at the moment his is playing pro thumper. When you go there be sure to mark your equipment with a nail writer so it will not get mixed up with others. If they give you a book to take the test in that involves cold reading, request something warmer. When people pass the assignment they become so happy they start to cry, meaning the center tear on one's face is so golden to them.
Posted: Aug 17, 2009 7:31am ----------------------------- Oh yea, I almost forgot, Sam. At the end of graduation be sure to throw your pencil high in the air like the other mentalist to form a swami. For more info view the following: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=15 |
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Ian Rowland Special user London 889 Posts
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Sam, you wrote "I'm not talking presentation". With due respect, I think you are. Presentation is almost all we have. Sometimes, relative newcomers come to me for advice or help (not that I have EVER suggested this is a smart move). One of the simple exercises I work through with them is how you could take a trick and a method that we all consider rather trivial, such as the 21 Card Trick, and turn it into something that would actually be worth watching. It's not that I suggest ACTUALLY featuring this in a mentalism set, because the trick itself is so well-known among laymen. It's just a technical exercise.
However, it's an opportunity to consider the different presentational frameworks that could be put around any given trick or routine. We look at premise, theme, script, voice, delivery, tone, manner, participation, expectations, story, structure, dramatic curve, gesture, expression, motive and lots of other things besides. All the things that have a transformational effect on the raw material, the basic mechanical 'steps' of the trick. These are all aspects of 'presentation', and I think these are what transform rather ordinary mentalism into something special.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
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muse Special user Scotland 925 Posts
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And talking of Ian Rowland, there is an excellent essay on his website on the subject of performing for 'real people' to gain experience and improve what you do. It's very positive about how to get started and incrementally improve your skills, and I found it quite inspiring. I go back and re-read it every so often.
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts
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Sam,
As re: magic clubs in your area, there are three International Brotherhood of Magicians Rings in Connecticut: Ring 278 in Hartford, Ring 59 in New Haven and Ring 97 in Stamford. Ring 278 meets 1st Wednesday of each month (contact is Jack Stroup at magicfeats@sbcglobal.net), Ring 59 meets the 1st Monday of each month (contact is CJ May at cyril.may@yale.edu). No current information about Ring 97. Maybe one of them is convenient to you. Will send you a PM later addressing some of your concerns, and my own thoughts, about mentalism and transitioning between magic and mentalism. In the meanwhile, be sure that while mentalism is certainly a subset of magic, and all are "allied arts" there are significant differences and distinctions between mentalism, psychic readings, spiritualism and mediumship although you will find some member of the Café often blurring those distinctions which serves only to confuse matters as some of the posts in this thread suggest.
Dick Christian
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Sam Weiss Loyal user Stratford, CT should have more than 278 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-08-18 11:57, Dick Christian wrote: Thank you... The Hartford one is too far away from here but I might try New Haven... do you have to be an IBM member to go to a meeting?
"There's something that gets in your soul when you study magic,it's in your heart, and when you perform it comes across the footlights and into everybody else's heart..."
-Denny Haney |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts
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This was a fascination discussion, with many great insights. I always loved mentalism. Magic did little for me. That has not changed over the years. I do magic to pay the bills, but it is the mentalists I am drawn to.
Despite this, and despite quite high presentational skills, I steered clear of mentalism for two decades. I did my first show only last year. There was a simple reason for this. I have always known that in magic the trick can be up to 90% of what you do. Many inept performers survive because their tricks are startling. But with mentalism it seems to be 20% the suit, 70% the presentation, and just 10% the tricks. Knowing this I was not happy presenting a mentalism show until I was completely happy with my performing persona for that show. As an evangical athiest and committed sceptic I never mention the supernatural. I make no claims and make no denials. People can watch and make up their own minds. And I am confident enough now to play for laughs without compromising my mental effects. In short I waited years despite a strong interest because I was not prepared to do mentalism badly. And I am glad I waited. Sam, if you have the interest you will come back to this when the time is right for you. Meanwhile enjoy what you are doing now, and keep your mind open. All the best, Tony.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts
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Sam,
Re: attending I.B.M. Ring meetings, in my experience you don't have to be a member to attend most meetings; however, there may be a fee for non-members in the case of meetings featuring a paid lecturer. Just give them a call and I'm sure they can fill you in on anything you need to know. Most Rings welcome visitors.
Dick Christian
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bob tripp New user 96 Posts
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There are a lot of very skilled magicians that just can't be credible Mentalists. Mentalism is a state of mind, a mind set, if you will, or an attitude.A mentalist doesn't roll up his sleeves, show both sides of his hands, or say things like, "I have here an ordinary deck of cards" or do wild,graceful and beautiful flourishes with his props. He does his best to foster an atmosphere where-in the paranormal is the normal. You get where you love it. It becomes the essence of your work. I could go on and on. If you care to give me your specific concerns I will give you specific potential solutions. BT
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts
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Sam,
There is so much great info here that I fear that I have little to offer. But, there is a book that I think might help you whether you work in magic or mentalism. The name of the book is "Geist." Others may disagree, but I think that after you find your geist, you will have more fun and will be able to be more professional. I would also recommend to you mental abilities that that have no claim of the "paranormal." I think that Harry Lorayne has made a great impact with memory effects. But this debate that you have with yourself about not wanting to "claim" powers that you do not have is one that many of us have had. The best solution to this is to acquire the power. Anything that I can do to help you with this, feel free to holler. Peace, Parson Almost forgot to mention Patrick Redford's Prevaricator. You do exactly what you claim.
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts
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Parson ~
I looked up Geist on Amazon but didn't see anything that appeared useful. Is there more to the title or an author name? Thanks! |
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts
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Mr Bdekolta sir,
Is the B silent? The book is by Ian Harling and Martin Nyrup. It is at a number of magic shops. It can be found at Hocus-Pocus and when they have a %30 off sale, it would only be about $40-$45. It has some effects in it, but the main thing that I received from the book was learning to play within my geist. For example, if I am a body language expert, bending probably sill not fit. It is worth a read. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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Joshua Quinn Inner circle with an outer triangle 2054 Posts
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I've managed to miss this thread till just now, but I wanted to chime in and say that Sam, I was once in your shoes. I had returned to magic after a 15-year hiatus, and discovered that what really seemed to interest me was mentalism. So I jumped in with both feet, and was disturbed by what I came up with. The initial material I was exposed to, left me with the impression that once you got past the kids' stuff and into Real Mentalism, the field was populated by nothing but gypsies, tramps and thieves. I decided I wanted nothing to do with it, sold my copy of 13 Steps and everything else, and turned my attention back to card tricks. It was probably another year or two before I gradually figured out that what I had found was not representative of the whole, and that there were other approaches out there -- including some in which I thought I could find a voice of my own.
So I second the others who have said that first, you need to decide what you want to express, and what you want to convey to an audience -- and then determine if mentalism (in any of it numerous, malleable, arbitrary, and often contradictory definitions) is the best way for you to achieve that.
Every problem contains the seeds of its own solution. Unfortunately every problem also contains the seeds of an infinite number of non-solutions, so that first part really isn't super helpful.
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JAlenS Inner circle Utah 1528 Posts
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I came into mentalism from years of thinking about a performer who did mental epic when I was in high school some 20 years ago. I often wondered about the ability to read minds but from a performance aspect I just didn't get it. When I started thinking in terms of what the audience perceives from a mentalism effect I understood the difference between magic and mentalism where the latter is perceived as a reality to the audience and the former appears as puzzles for lack of real magic ability of the magician to the audience or there are only two explanations being either deceptive moves and trick apparatus or the magician has actual powers but I think the audience appreciates a skilled magician who makes the effect appear real.
Mentalism on the other hand, because of various mechanics, leaves an audience with no other explanation than what the performer told them was happening. Also, if you think of a mentalism effect in terms of audience perception it may spark your desire to perform mentalism. Hope that help a little. |
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ted french Inner circle Columbus Ohio 1946 Posts
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I compare mentalism to hip hop or punk rock music. most of the material just doesn't make any logical sense but the stuff that is available out that I like is the stuff I like more than anything else. There is just not much great stuff out there beyond direct mind reading. Why do a complicated book test or something that predicts 1 out of 6 when you can simply do a center tear or have a imp pad and read any thought.
P3
practice practice perform. |
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JAlenS Inner circle Utah 1528 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-08-29 14:27, ted french wrote: Hey Ted. Have you checked out the book tests at outlaw effects? They are waayyyy better than your average book test. IM and many other's O of course. |
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chmara Inner circle Tucson, AZ 1911 Posts
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I beg pardon -- I have not read all the above entries. The question caused me some consternation over the past weeks -- and I now think I understand it on several levels.
1. Many folks think mentalism is boring. But in performance -- too many mentalists forget that in the US and UK we have become a highly visual society. Other magic has a strong visual component to the entertainment mentalists often forget other than "classroom" blackboard" style. I think of Derren Brown's Gorilla as the best demonstration of visual mentalism I have ever seen. 2. Personal involvement -- rather than a suspension of disbelief -- seems to be missing in too many performances. How does our mentalism power involve and relate to the individual audience member. One way to handle this is in the use of what I now call the "Scorpio Rising" principle promoted by Cassidy. 3. Bland, bland, bland. Too much toning down or denial of superpowers is a turn off. 4. Don't be afraid to fortune tell -- if you are positive. Give them something to remember -- not just see and pronounce visually spectacular.
Gregg (C. H. Mara) Chmara
Commercial Operations, LLC Tucson, AZ C. H. Mara Illusion & Psychic Entertainments |
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Posted: Aug 17, 2009 02:38 am 
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