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Robert M
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Quote:
On 2010-01-08 05:08, Sybilmagic wrote:
Quote:

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert


I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.


All I'm saying is... if this was your trick, I don't think you'd appreciate all the negativity before the product is even released, especially by people who don't even plan on purchasing it. This isn't about "informed choices" because the trick isn't even available yet.

I think we should at least wait until Little Man is released before we crucify him. Surely no one really believed that Little Man was going to walk like a real person or did they? Sometimes I think magicians are more gullible than lay people.

The "creative" thread that Steve Hook started seems to be much more productive than this one - at least at this point. No one's trying to censor anyone. I just wish those who are so quick to criticize would try to put themselves in Paul's or Rodney's or Mark's shoes. It's so easy to be critical yet so incredibly hard to be the one who creates all this cool stuff.

Peace,
Robert
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Quote:
On 2010-01-08 13:53, Robert M wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-01-08 05:08, Sybilmagic wrote:
Quote:

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert


I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.


All I'm saying is... if this was your trick, I don't think you'd appreciate all the negativity before the product is even released, especially by people who don't even plan on purchasing it. This isn't about "informed choices" because the trick isn't even available yet.

I think we should at least wait until Little Man is released before we crucify him. Surely no one really believed that Little Man was going to walk like a real person or did they? Sometimes I think magicians are more gullible than lay people.

The "creative" thread that Steve Hook started seems to be much more productive than this one - at least at this point. No one's trying to censor anyone. I just wish those who are so quick to criticize would try to put themselves in Paul's or Rodney's or Mark's shoes. It's so easy to be critical yet so incredibly hard to be the one who creates all this cool stuff.

Peace,
Robert


Robert,

How many performers do you know of who get kiss-a££ advice from those close to them and start to lose their edge. Its hugely common.

So to think you are doing Paul Harris any favours by NOT pointing out what you may think are obvious defects in the effect does him no favours. A great deal of the criticism of this effect is paired with "Paul Harris is great" type comments so its obvious that an element of disappointment is that many don't feel this is up to his standards. Sad for the effect that he has worked so long on but also a good indicator of the esteem he is held in ?
Dan Bernier
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I want to make it clear as I did many post before that I oppose to having PH's reputation being in question. Paul Harris's reputation is, and shouldn't be based on how many feel about Little Man.

Babe Ruth is a legend to baseball fans throughout the world, but never hit a home run everytine he was up at bats. Micheal Jordan is a legend in Basketball but didn't score everytime he had the ball.

Paul Harris is a legend to magic and I personally believe that his reputation was built over many years of gaining respect from his peers and fans. I know that many of us didn't like the marketing, and feel that Little Man is not magical or lives up to the hype, but I also respect those who believe it is. I carry no grudges, nor feelings of contempt for those who have expressed themselves in a negative and derogatory way towards me or others who have shared their opinions in this forum.

I say this because although I am a very opinionated person, I do not make a habit of going around and criticizing every product that comes on the market. Have I over stated my position in regards to Little Man? Yes, I probally have. Should I be condemed because of it? No, I don't believe I should. Should someone question my intergrity, or my credability? No, I don't think it's fair to do that to anyone.

I will admit that when someone chooses to repeatedly resort to criticizing me for my opinions, (name calling, etc) I tend to become more aggresive in expressing them.

I don't state my opinions just to tick people off. Nor, do I look for a fight. Yes, I wear my faith on my sleeve, and yes I do not always represent my faith as good as I should. For that, I apologize sincerely from the bottom of my heart. I have not been a perfect example, and have fallen short on representing my God in a more productive way.

Again, to those who may feel that I have over-stepped a line, please except my apologies. To the many who have written me with words of encouragement. I thank you all, but I do honestly believe that the few outway the many.

Dan
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baggins321
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Janet,

Will it be possible to rig a table in order to have little man walk on a normal surface?
ricardo carpenter
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The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !


It is asked to fans to explain how little man could be good.

It's not about something already on the market, and about which people share and talk, it's about Saving Little Man.

It's like : Little man (Paul Harris regret to present...)

It's nice to the fans, but it's not their job, they don't need to.

It's the job of PHP to do the job.

But maybe I don't get the point.

Maybe be it's just a love story.

It's nice.

ps: I'm nice to: this post is not in the mentioned thread. I love me.
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2010-01-08 15:22, ricardo carpenter wrote:
The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !


It is asked to fans to explain how little man could be good.

It's not about something already on the market, and about which people share and talk, it's about Saving Little Man.

It's like : Little man (Paul Harris regret to present...)

It's nice to the fans, but it's not their job, they don't need to.

It's the job of PHP to do the job.

But maybe I don't get the point.

Maybe be it's just a love story.

It's nice.

ps: I'm nice to: this post is not in the mentioned thread. I love me.


IMO, I have to agree that this was also my intitial thought as well. Perhaps a diversion away from the bad publicity and many negative responses that Little Man has generated. I don't know if there is any truth behind it though. If there was, it would only turn out in the end to be counter productive.

In the meantime, there ARE some good idea's being shared. I encourage those who have contributed one of their own original idea's to continue to do so, as creative thinking sparks more creativety. Smile
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The Great Smartini
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On 2010-01-08 12:07, Gospel Dan wrote:

I suppose some of us are asking ourselves do I need to spend $300 on an effect that will only work if I have a strong routine and presentation for it? I could also be alone on that thought as well, who knows.(lol)

I always found that a great trick is one that can be performed without saying a single word while performing it. Adding a presentation to it is supposed to be the icing on the cake, not the entire ingredients to a trick. But, hey, what do I know, I'm only a part-time amatuer who is over opinionated, carries a hidden agenda to distroy Paul Harris's good name and reputation, and would better the magic community if I just shut up and dissapear.(lol)

:)


For magic to be magical one needs a presentation. This can be an effect performed silent with or without music or one with a verbal script. Whatever you do is your "presentation" and this applies even to an exceptional performer such as Eugene. Some of Eugene's magic has a deep spiritual tone such as The history of Religion as told by a pack of cards" and others are as simple as The worlds fastest card trick which has very little verbal script and is almost over before it starts.

Magic without a presentation isn't magic it's a puzzle or? The Little Man of course is no exception. It, like all magic, requires a presentational frame in order for it to become a professional piece of magic theatre that someone would be interested in seeing/experiencing. If someone is expecting to pay $300 and not do any work to make the effect their own and to give it an orginal presentation then they really don't get what magic is about. I have magic props that range in the thousands of dollars and without work in developing a magical presentation they simply aren't magic. The props are the tools we use to create our magic they can't make magic by themselves. Well except for that Axtell programmable hands free chimp which can be pre-programmed to do the er...scrap that I had to develop the routine and program the little sucker so even he too needs help doing the magic.

jeff
Dan Bernier
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You raise some good points. As I think about what you said after reading your post, it isn't so much the trick that is magicial but how the performer performs it that makes it magicial. Even though I knew that, I failed to acknowledge that.

I have seen some tricks that the effects alone require no patter, but presenting it without patter is still a presentation chose by the performer to create the magical moment with his/her audience that involves incorporating an original idea that suits his character and non verbal presentation of it.
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edh
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But...you also have to have an effect that, hopefully, is structured so it cancels out the method to the audience. This does not.

As has been posted before, and I paraphrase..."it doesn't matter if they don't know the method. The audience only has to think they know the method" and the effect will be ruined.
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Dan Bernier
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In today's market of magic tricks, the saying that there is nothing new under the sun has prompted many to use a new way to sell magic effects by also selling routines and presentations with them. We are no longer just paying for the secret but paying for the routines and presentations offered with them. We are encouraged at the same time to take those routines and presentations and make them original to our character and style.

I agree completely with your statement edh. I too feel the same way. Each of us have to decide if an effect is worth the investment for ourselves. If the consumer feels that a method will automatically be assumed by our spectator, no matter what we say, the layperson will think they know the method and the effect will be ruined, even if the layperson is not correct.

In the past, I have showed many demo's to my friends to get a layperson's perspective on a trick. I don't go around showing every body, and I don't show every demo made either. When I think that my first reaction may be biased because I am a magician, it's nice to get an opinion from the type of people I would be performing for. This one got the "cool" factor, but immediate speculations were made.
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bmagic
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I am relatively new to the Café but have been involved in magic for quite some time both as a hobbyist and as a performer.
I will have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed at the Little Man demo after all of the hype. What really bothered me was the fact that the bag and the "cheap" dollar store play doh container remained on the table during the presentation.
I am just getting "magically tired" of hyped reviews and overpriced effects. I certainly respect the many contributions of Paul Harris and truly enjoy his creative mind, but that doesn't automatically equate to a performance piece of magic.
A $300 price tag can be looked at as a way to keep it out of the hands of the curious, but in this instance it appears the method and the "overall entertainment/amazement" value of this effect is and will be much less!
The Great Smartini
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IMHO what makes this effect not work for me is all of the attention the bag and box create. This is a close up effect and these items seem too much to be ignored. What do others think about this? I use Doug Malloys effect The Lean in my stage show which involves that extra not so little something onstage. Some hide/disguise it and others Including myself/Doug don't. How do those who plan to use LM plan to handle this?

Jeff
Dan Bernier
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I don't think the majority here has any desire on using or purchasing LM. The few who are are over in another thread creatively trying to come up with presentation idea's for it.

You bring up a very valid point once again. For close-up work it does seem too much to ignore. I think though that any attempt to incorporate the bag and container into the presentation will only bring more heat to it. Also, for those who do restaurants, I don't know how customers would react at someone bringing clay to their table.

I do stage presentations as well as close-up, but I now have a different workable idea for a walking man that would be more visually presentable for stage application. Because it's stage, there's no need for someone to examine my props which allows me more freedom in my method.
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Quote:
On 2010-01-08 15:22, ricardo carpenter wrote:
The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !



So, what is wrong with that? If you have found some other threads that are more captivating, please share! Actually, I am enjoying the entire LM discussion, including exercising what little creativity I have toward ideas for LM. My dime. No one has asked me to help sell "something at 300$"! Nor do I have the hubris to think my opinion or ideas will have any effect on the final story of LM...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Dan Bernier
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Ricardo carpenter does makes sense though. Without knowing for sure what the method is, creatively constructing routines and presentations may be fun, but may also prove to be premature or futile if the method itself prohibits most of them, no matter how good the idea's are.
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ricardo carpenter
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Mandarin,

You're right, sharing ideas is a good and funny thing to do.
My point was may be irrespectful. I didn't want to.

I just pointed that IMO, with the team involved in LM and the price of 300$,
one could expect that some creativity, some very valuable ideas would have been already input. It looks like an unfinished work.

But the way I did was not very good : too much sarcastic may be and irrespectul for those you like Little Man, and I don't have to comment that. I hope those who will buy it, will make good things with it.
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I just want to say a little something, to give another perspective on this. I am only a few years old in the magic world, and I am not a professional performer. I am a hobbyist, and I certainly don't have "deep pockets." I have gone through phases, but through it all, I have to say that Paul Harris is my favorite creator. The things he does with normal items is incredible. I find visual beauty in effects like "Buck Naked" and TA's "Transcendental Bar Bet." I am at the point where I can work out most "tricks" when I see them. Again, I am a hobbyist, though "experienced", not a working professional. I show magic to my friends, family, and co-workers. My "work" is in sales, and I love to sell. (I do understand that good magicians are good salesman, and usually vice-versa. At this point in time, I do not feel I am "good enough" to be a professional, nor do I think I want to be.) So, onto Little Man. Honestly, I was never impressed with the effect. When everyone was hyping it up on here, and complaining about "no demo", I was trying to figure out what everyone saw it it. I just didn't get it. I couldn't imagine this reaching "astonishment." I think what some others were trying to say here, too, is that people's brains are going to immediately put it in a "box" (If you're familiar with PH's definition of astonishment from AoA book 1). Just like everyone who has seen the demo has done. You immediately saw a m****t. You may not know where, or how, but you are sure of it from the motion. But, on the other hand, you have to realize that this is US seeing the demo. AND we had so much built up over the past few months, that there was NO WAY a demo VIDEO would surprise us. I feel we put too many expectations into Little Man. It seems that the big letdown comes from our own expectations of what Little Man's walking was going to look like. BUT, remember that we created fantasies in our head for a long time. Little Man does exactly what they said he would do. And if you can show the bag first, you can show the container, you can rip the dough up, etc, and denounce all notions of the method, How is this not amazing? Imagine you are a very smart layperson. Someone says they want to show you something, and they proceed with the little man routine in the demo, right in front of you. You examine the bag and everything, and find nothing. I really feel that the moment he starts to move, there will be a moment of astonishment. If not, at least a bit of surprise. It is CLAY for God's sake! And there is nothing to find upon examination. Now, I do feel that this is not for a working professional yet. I just don't think it would work for any professional situations (although I'm not a pro, so someone may disagree). I hate to say it, but I agree with whoever said earlier that it's for "hobbyists with deep pockets." It really is. But to say that it's not amazing, I think, is forgetting that we have been playing with Little Man for months in our heads. And now that a demo is up, it is less than what we WANTED it to be. Also, we don't know yet, why it is $300. There may be an expensive part of the gimmick. Remember, this is coming from the man who gave us True Astonishments for only $300. That was a steal. But anyway, I just wanted to say this, because I feel that everyone on here is "right", in that, their opinion is valid to some extent. We are all different in how we use our magic. Everyone is arguing, but it's all apples to oranges. And people seem frustrated that it's not what they were expecting. What exactly were you expecting?
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Ricardo-

Thanks for considering my point, and for your reply. I also see what you are saying, but until we see the finished offering we don't know how much presentation info will be included.

Could be it will follow a trend I have seen in magic (and elsewhere) that I think may have started with the "sequel" idea from movies - i.e. intentionally leave the first offering lacking, so you can follow it up with version 2, 3, etc. I think we can all find examples of this ploy.

Then again, the first thumb tip offering was likely not much more than the thumb tip.

zorbinski-

I am sure you have some good things to contribute, but I can not bring myself to wade thru that huge continuum- some paragraphing would be appreciated...

Regards,

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
ricardo carpenter
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Mandarin,

I'm not sure the trend you mention, if it would be, is a good marketing idea :
a this price I personaly, as a customer, wouldn't like to know that the version I buy is not as good as the ones that will be marketed later.

If magic begin to look like some Microsoft Windows systems... I'm not sure the ones who do that will have a good reputation.

In other words, I don't want to be a "victim" of some experimental process.

300$, in my world, imply quality.

ps : good to see you take no offense. Smile

Regards
The Great Smartini
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Quote:
On 2010-01-09 10:10, ricardo carpenter wrote:
Mandarin,

I'm not sure the trend you mention, if it would be, is a good marketing idea :
a this price I personaly, as a customer, wouldn't like to know that the version I buy is not as good as the ones that will be marketed later.

If magic begin to look like some Microsoft Windows systems... I'm not sure the ones who do that will have a good reputation.

In other words, I don't want to be a "victim" of some experimental process.

300$, in my world, imply quality.

ps : good to see you take no offense. Smile

Regards


Ricardo,

You would think that $300 would imply some sort of quality but in todays world this simply isn't so. Sad isn't it?

jeff
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