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The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2009-09-28 21:17, evikshin wrote:
Andrew,

I would definitely agree that the sleight of hand solution is infinitely better than "oh he's just using trick coins." that's why the combination of sound psychology and routining, as well as apparatus, can bring about the miracle.


No. We cannot rely upon some combination to bring about the miracle.

We need to start with the individual effect. The execution of that effect is going to arouse suspicions. Within the execution of that effect we need to offer proofs that those suspicions are unfounded.

I can think of magic tricks with coins that require neither sleight-of-hand nor gaffes. That does not mean that those tricks are perfect -- on the contrary, those tricks contain significant flaws.

Remember the positives that sleight-of-hand offers us. Remember the positives that gimmicked handlings offer us. If you can cancel, then find ways to use the positives of each to cancel the negatives of the other. If you can't cancel, then find ways to eliminate proofs of the methods that you're using.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
pearljamjeff
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Quote:
On 2009-09-29 00:57, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
We need to start with the individual effect.

I would take it back even further and say that we need to start with ourselves.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
evikshin
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Quote:
Remember the positives that sleight-of-hand offers us. Remember the positives that gimmicked handlings offer us. If you can cancel, then find ways to use the positives of each to cancel the negatives of the other. If you can't cancel, then find ways to eliminate proofs of the methods that you're using.

The above is pretty much what I meant to say!

evikshin
funsway
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We tend to speak of spectators making decisions between our offered alternatives as is that is how the human mind works, but 'tis not so. Only under forced conditions do we make "trade off decision," and if the process becomes too complex we simply refuse to make a decision at all. Thus "magic" by any definition cannot be the 'default' cause if it does not already exist in the memory of the spectator, pass his "screen of logic" and rest comfortably within his ethical structure. Some concept of magic must prior to the magician forcing or coaxing a decisions against props or sleights. We may not know the exact nature or source of this 'believing', but rely on its 'reality'. Consider:

A) the spectator has some experience with performance magic and knows that sleight of hand and gimmicked coins are possibilities, but enjoys seeing how well the magician creates mystery out of nothing,

B) the spectator find awe and wonder in many events each day and accepts that there may be causes he does not understand. He is little concerned with having to make any decision and just loves to be entertained.

C) the spectator dislikes 'not knowing', and constantly seeks knowledge in both science and religious sources. The magician forces discord in his ordered mind and all attempts to minimize Sleights and Gimmicks only increases his emotional distress. He finally just places the who performance "on a back burner" hoping to resolve it at a later time. His memories are filled with such unresolved mysteries -- another definition of magic,

D) a mixture of A and B in which the spectator wants to believe in his own ability to do more and understand more of life, and views the performance as a demonstration of what he might be if he worked harder, studied more or wasn't so ****** critical of everything.

E - F ...

As performers we make guesses as to the mental disposition of the 'audience' as some strange amalgam of individual spectators. Not only do we 'over think' the spectator's perceptions of each sleight or move, but possibly over think the reasons behind any spectator's reaction to the puzzles and quandaries we present. Surely we must establish a "sense of magic" before we plunge into any effect that requires a rational decision. Some of this is solved if we are advertised as a magician and only those expecting and appreciating magic buy tickets. This is less known/predictable if we approach a stranger and say, "Wanna see a trick?"

What can make a difference is how the spectator perceives us as a performer of magic; which is based on our own perceptions of magic as being 'real' -- faith that the capacity for magic as an alternative exists in this spectator's mind. All we can do is draw it forth, caress it into the forefront of pleasurable experience, and then gently minimize any rational discordance. The elements of surprise must seem mysterious rather that unnatural, while the elements of suspense might seem skillful or mechanical -- only to be swept always the 'greater movement' of "might be magic." Making magic "more real" is our job!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Marc Gettmann
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I think it depends what you want. If you like coin magic (like me) go for it.

But if you want to reach the goal, that the spectator has the feeling of "magic", sth. he can`t explain, leave coin magic.

If the same spectator would experience Mickey Silver doing his thing and a mentalist doing a great CT for example, he would probably say: "The guy with the coins and the funny sounds when they appeared and dissapeared was great and funny; but how could the other guy know what I was thinking of...."

I am always depressed by these comments, because they will never know, that good coin work often takes much more work and devotion than a nice mental trick.

So coinmagic will always be considered SOH. But I am ok with it.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2009-09-29 06:03, Marc Gettmann wrote:...

So coinmagic will always be considered SOH. But I am ok with it.

Even back in Scot's day there were ways of getting that effect using coins - and the bit about changing a coin in a volunteer's hand is an example. IMHO Hofzinser solved that problem with his copper and silver coin transposition ages ago. Since then folks have improved on the mechanical technology yet only occasionally mentioned in print how to improve on making the trick work for larger audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Mb217
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There's a reason why both sleight of hand and gaffs are here, they are extentions of one another. Don't lose your balance on the wooden ladder just because a rung is missing or made or gold. Keep moving forward, the best is yet to come. Smile

Have a great day all. Smile
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
vinsmagic
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I will say this, sleight of hand used in conjunction with a gimmick is the best of both worlds....
vinny
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harris
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Harris Deutsch
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The expression, suspension of belief (core ones that is) comes to mind for this nearly normal entertainer.

I can watch a magical performance with many sets of eyes (beliefs, brains).

They include:
a. as an artist
b. as a magician
c. as a kid
d. as an adult with a whimsical attitude
e. as a critic


One never knows what combination our audience is "perceiving" our magic


Harris
Still 2 old to know everything....
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Herr Brian Tabor
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Tommy Wonder wrote a few great articles on this subject, one of which is "An Examination of Examinations" Page 214 book 1. There are many more that could apply here too.
evikshin
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Quote:
On 2009-09-29 10:21, vinsmagic wrote:
I will say this, sleight of hand used in conjunction with a gimmick is the best of both worlds....
vinny

I'd also add this is the most probable route to take if you want to maximize the magical experience for lay audience!

Evikshin


Quote:
On 2009-09-29 13:18, Harris wrote:
One never knows what combination our audience is "perceiving" our magic


Harris
Still 2 old to know everything....

I totally agree! Keeps me up at night. And this is what makes performing magic frightening at times, at least for me, which is the unknown x-factor...we can practice all we want, till the cows come home, but how can we possibly anticipate which frame of reference, or lens, the audience is viewing us with?

Evikshin


Quote:
On 2009-09-29 06:03, Marc Gettmann wrote:
I think it depends what you want. If you like coin magic (like me) go for it.

But if you want to reach the goal, that the spectator has the feeling of "magic", sth. he can`t explain, leave coin magic.

If the same spectator would experience Mickey Silver doing his thing and a mentalist doing a great CT for example, he would probably say: "The guy with the coins and the funny sounds when they appeared and disappeared was great and funny; but how could the other guy know what I was thinking of...."

I am always depressed by these comments, because they will never know, that good coin work often takes much more work and devotion than a nice mental trick.

So coinmagic will always be considered SOH. But I am ok with it.

Agreed. Coin magic takes a lot of effort, as I've learned in the past year, to perfect, arguably more effort than card magic. Again, I keep on going back to an effect like "Out of this World": Lay people are absolutely, 110% blown away and mystified. There is no explanation, especially if you do it with a borrowed deck and have them shuffle the cards thoroughly. With coin magic, you can give them a great experience too, but it seems that the lingering thought of SOH will always be in the specs mind. Due to the fact that the coins are disappearing, appearing in your hand (this just screams "sleight of hand").

Now, as Vinny, Wes, et al. have mentioned, I do believe that with coin magic, the combination of gimmicks and high level sleight of hand seems the way to go.

Thanks,

Evikshin
Curtis Kam
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Before you reach any conclusions, get, read, and try the coin effects in the book Stars of Magic. Most of the coin effects there appear to be sleightless, yet have a strong and memorable impact. The Kangaroo coins, Slydini's "Flyaway Coin", the Carlyle "Copper penetration" effect, (even without the watch steal) Spellbound, Leipzig's pride, the Malini vanish and with some polish, the Scarne Copper/Silver Transpo all eliminate sleight-of-hand as an explanation.

Of the routines listed above, only one requires a gimmick.

Other routines that go beyond sleight-of-hand: coin bends in the spectator's hand, coin under the spectator's watch, coin through glass tabletop, coin in bottle, and the coin that appears and/or disappears in the spectator's hand.

None of these routines absolutely requires a gimmick, although you certainly could use one.

If your current coin magic doesn't blow people "110%" away, it might not be a problem with all of coin magic, just yours, and just at the moment.
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evikshin
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Thanks for the reference Curtis! I will check it out.

Now, I absolutely do not believe that it is impossible to blow people away 111.2% with coins, in fact, my original purpose with this thread was to generate a list of routines that accomplish this.

Thanks for being the first person to give me a concrete reference!

Best,

Evikshin
John T Cox
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Moments of wonderment for me...
Waking up early one camping trip, forgetting where I was and trying to make sense of the colors and shapes above me - sky, branches, clouds

Walking up to a ship in a harbor where the water was so clear that I could see the bottom of the marina. The ship looked like it was hovering in nothingness

Watching the small lady float around the audience during the Cirque du Soleil show Corteo

Watching Dirk Benedict levitate and vanish a ferrari

Watching people dive into the floor during O

In all cases I experienced things that should not be and drifted in the place of wonderment. It is when you juxtapose what you think you know with a contradiction. An example is the Needle through Balloon. It just should not be!

I have blown people away with a simple complete vanish of a coin. Perhaps we make it too hard by thinking about it too much. If you were to pick up your car keys, then set them down, then reach for them and have them be gone you experience the state of wonderment (followed by other things!)

My point is that it happens often if you get out of the way.

John
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harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Ah! Stars of magic.

What is old is new again.

Curtis...thanks for the memories and reminder to get that back on my reading shelf.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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evikshin
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Quote:
On 2009-09-29 21:58, Curtis Kam wrote:

the coin that appears and/or disappears in the spectator's hand.




Where can I find this?
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Coins continue to be among my favorite and most used props. (Right up there with my nearly normal puppets).

Lately I have even done short routines one handed(right) with Nigel on my left hand.

Magic, first the book and then the movie with Anthony Hopkins, helped open the possibilities of combining the two. (magic and ventriloquism) Of course, Boley and others had been doing it for years.

The joy of watching folks like Goshman and Slydini, brought me to want to share my own nearly normal brand of coin magic.

Harris "palms of aluminum foil" deutsch
for a lighter touch in coin magic.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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evikshin
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Be cool to see you in action someday Harris!

Evikshin
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