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mindpunisher
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On 2009-10-05 14:44, dmkraig wrote:
Yep. Tony and Richard are exactly correct. In thousands of year of working with hypnosis and its precedents, there has never been a case of someone going into trance and not emerging from it. I'd say that's a pretty good record!




Thousands of years? Wheres your proof? How can you say that? Is this one of your statements based upon scientific research? If so let us see it? Where is the research for thousands of years?

Why not millions of years go for broke.
mindpunisher
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On 2009-11-23 11:03, dmkraig wrote:
LOL! The terms can mean anything to anyone. As such, they are meaningless. Just like many of your posts.


The terms might mean anything to you but I would definately apply them to you.
ArtIn
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Thank you for your comment anthony.

<<If someone does not know they are psychotic or psychologically damaged then all you have left is your gut feeling and experience about whether they are suitable for your performance. >>

that's a interesting point enemies of hypnosis argue very hard about.
They tell you that it is'nt possible to spot those persons.
"Every third is psychotic and every second person at least neurotic."
That frame makes it hard for me to learn.
Last time I met somebody who said he will report the next stage hypnotist to the police for using medical/therapy technics?!? dunno if it really can be converted that way.

He really believes that hypnosis is a deep intrusion causing potential damage.
It should be only done by skilled medical/psychological studied personnel.

those guys really raise disturbance...


looking forward to see you in blackpool.
TonyB2009
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Craig, you are looking for a definition of stress. From a strictly engineering point of view stress is the forces we subject a structure to. Strain is the effects those stresses have on the structure. So the definition is useless to us.

Whether we define it or not, everyone in our audience will know what we mean. Just as we can all count to ten without studying group and field theory, or switch on a light without any knowledge of electricity, so we all know intuitively what sort of people hypnotists do not want on their stages.

We also know intuitively when these sort of people volunteer, and we can politely ask them to rejoin the audience.

This is not a legal thing; it is a curtest to the audience, and a safety thing. And the proof that this common-sense approach works is that legal cases are rare, and even more rarely successful.

In fact, I am not aware of any successful cases claiming psychological damage. If you are aware of any, please let us know. It concerns us all. But it is a rarity. Tony.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-24 04:26, ArtIn wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-23 17:08, dmkraig wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<


@dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.



Which ones, Artin?


I meant a source (books, internet links) of those scientific researches and facts.
if there is something to read about specifically I would be glad to do.

how do you phrase your warning for your audience?

I appreciate mindpunishers opinion and I still think it's some kind of "healthy view".
the fact of considering that there could go something wrong with somebody.
it does'nt have to happen but to be prepared could'nt be a bad initial situation.

martin


I'm sorry I was unclear, Martin.
Of course you're looking for books or sources.
What I was asking about was for which opinion that I expressed.
Tell me what it is that I wrote that you want proof for and I'll provide sources.
dmkraig
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Yes, MP, thousands of years.

The proof is that there is not one book, not one article, not one source that shows anyone has gone into trance and not emerged from it.

Since humans have not been around for millions of years, only a fool with no knowledge of history would even bring that up.
dmkraig
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On 2009-11-24 10:10, TonyB2009 wrote:
Craig, you are looking for a definition of stress. From a strictly engineering point of view stress is the forces we subject a structure to. Strain is the effects those stresses have on the structure. So the definition is useless to us.


No, Toni, I am NOT looking for a definition of stress. What I am saying is that the expression "severe stress" can meaning anything. For some people, being asked to do a simple task might cause them "severe stress." To another person, doing that same task might not be considered stressful at all, and certainly not "severe."

Quote:
Whether we define it or not, everyone in our audience will know what we mean.


Amazing! I thought you were doing hypnosis when, in fact, you were doing mind reading! Smile

In fact, if you asked 100 people to define "severe stress," I would bet they would have a wide variety of definitions for the expression. Someone whom you would consider being under "severe stress" might consider themselves not to be under stress at all. They might not even recognize what they're experiencing as stress.

Quote:
Just as we can all count to ten without studying group and field theory, or switch on a light without any knowledge of electricity, so we all know intuitively what sort of people hypnotists do not want on their stages.


I can give a definition of "ten." I find it interesting that although you claim that everyone knows what "severe stress" is, you haven't given a specific definition of it.

The thing is, as soon as you make clear what your definition is, that's the expression to use. That way, people will know exactly what you mean and not wonder, "Hmmm...is my stress moderate or severe?"

Quote:
We also know intuitively when these sort of people volunteer, and we can politely ask them to rejoin the audience.


I'm not so sure that's it's intuitive so much as something we learn from experience. However, I agree that hypnotists with experience can spot them easily and ask them to enjoy the show from the audience.

Quote:
This is not a legal thing; it is a curtest to the audience, and a safety thing. And the proof that this common-sense approach works is that legal cases are rare, and even more rarely successful.


You're correct that legal cases are rare, but I would contend that's more because being in trance isn't harmful and not because we've prevented someone from going bonkers because while in a trance they thought they were feeling cold.

However here, in the U.S., it's far more of a legal matter. The disclaimer gives the performer plausible deniability. "Your honor, I warned people under psychiatric care not to participate and he still chose to come on stage. I can't be responsible for people who were not hypnotized when they decided to act against my explicit instructions."

Quote:
In fact, I am not aware of any successful cases claiming psychological damage. If you are aware of any, please let us know. It concerns us all. But it is a rarity. Tony.


I agree with you on this. This is what I've said all along, but MP was more interested in spreading fear that someone was going to be flopping like a fish out off water if they even came near a trance. There's just no evidence to support it, in spite of MPs insistence that it's a constant danger.
mindpunisher
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You are such a plonker Craig really.

I doubt in any court of Law if someone was hurt or damaged in any way after being or because of being on stage and that "I told you not to come up" would save you from prosicution.

Secondly nowhere have I ever said trance on its own is dangerous. I have said stage hypnosis which includes a lot more than trance may be dangerous for certain people especially in the hands of badly trained practitioners.


I have also said that just because there is no concrete "proof" doesn't mean that misuse of hypnosis can't harm. The real truth is no one knows for sure.


Dr heap is a well known Medical expert that gave evidence in the case of Sharon Tabarn that said Hypnosis was not the likely cause of her death from a suggestion of 100,000 volts in the Uk. Apparantly she had a severe phobia of electricity.

However he also noted

"Dr. Heap also noted "some suggestions such as receiving an electric shock may cause sudden fear, and thereby may be construed as real stressors. Perhaps this aspect of stage hypnosis may have serious harmful effects in certain vulnerable individuals" (Heap, 1995, p. 5)."

Heap himself who gave evidence in FAVOUR of the stage hypnosis concedes that it may be dangerous to certain individuals. And of course there were medical practitioners who thought that it had a direct connection to her death.

According to Craig no members of the medical profession believe hypnosis is dangerous based on his "scientific facts". In actual fact there are many members of the Medical community who are opposed to stage hypnosis.

The truth is nobody knows for 100% certainty.

Personally I believe that some people may be vulnerable and care needs to be taken while handling people on stage.

Craig just doesn't seem to get it. He's stuck in La La land.
dmkraig
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You know, it's amazing, MP, that with all your misrepresentation and lies about what others post that you can even sleep at night...unless, of course, you're psychotic yourself.

So let's go through your misrepresentations and lies, one by one.

1) I NEVER said that making a disclaimer would prevent you from being sued. I said it would give you "plausible deniability." That's a defense, not a prevention.

2) You have CONTINUALLY stated that if someone has some sort of problem and is hypnotized they might have problems as a result. In fact, you have talked about it so much you sound like a terrorist trying to prevent anyone from doing hypnosis. If you want to deny your position now and state that, in fact, it is highly unlikely that stage hypnosis will mentally harm someone I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.

3) You know say that just because there's no proof of harm doesn't mean there hasn't been any. This is the same argument used by Creationists, "absence of proof doesn't mean proof of absence." In this case, lack of proof of harm doesn't mean it hasn't happened. By the same token, the absence of proof of little green men living on Mars doesn't mean they aren't there.

Frankly, MP, it WOULD be a good argument except for one thing: you're the one making the claim of all this harm. Therefore, it's up to you to prove your claim. So come on, give us some proof. Since according to you it's so likely to happen, you should have no problem coming up with LOTS of examples. I'm sure we're all waiting for your proof.

4) You quote Dr. Heap, but look at his "weasel words": "may cause...may be construed ... Perhaps this aspect... may have..." This is typical of someone who is trying to make a point without any evidence or proof. It suggests a connection without any proof of the connection and gives out after out after out. Not once did he say that X causes Y. Instead he says "perhaps" it does or it "may cause." It sounds good but it's meaningless.

5) Next, MP goes on to outright misrepresent what I said. Oh screw that...he's an outright liar. I NEVER wrote, I NEVER implied that "no members of the medical profession believe hypnosis is dangerous." To say that I claimed that is 100% false and misleading. It is libelous.

What happened was that MP wrote that "most" medical professionals believed that. I wrote that I had seen no evidence that "most" of them believed that or that even "many" believed it. In fact, my guess is, most medical professional would give no professional opinion about this since it's outside their scope of practice. Do SOME believe that way? Absolutely. Contrary to the lies of MP I would never deny that some medical professionals believe that, although I would contend that many of those have their own agendas about that rather than having actually studied any data.

However, the reasons that a relatively small number, and not "most" as MP claimed, of medical professional believe that way is not the issue. The issue, pure and simple, is that MP is an outright liar. If he isn't psychotic he should be feeling shame for his misrepresentations right now.
mindpunisher
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You don't half ramble Craig....

Who wound up your elastic band? You also contradict yourself constantly. I am sorry I don't have scientific proof for this it is just my opinion from observation.
dmkraig
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You don't even bother denying how much of a liar you are.
Of course, we can all see that truth so that would be a waste of your time.
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